Diva and Zebra questions

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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Urs
u-he
22515 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:22 am

david.beholder wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:55 pm
I think TyrellN6 envelopes are identical to ACE/Bazille. Could be wrong, but I'm quite sure. For Hive we did new envelopes to match certain shapes also found in certain synthesizers (digital), like we did for Diva (analogue).
Urs, btw I remember talks about Release in Moog Envs and Alpha Juno Envs in Diva? Are they probable to happen?
A substantial Diva update is going to be the next major project after Zebra3. It'll be some time before we get into this. Small changes may happen before, but I don't think it'll be new envelope modules.

(Diva is also our by far top selling product, it doesn't seem wise to rush any major changes)

chk071
KVRAF
17203 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:36 am

Urs, while you're here... mind to tell a bit about the "bits and bytes" or envelopes in soft, or digital synths, or even in analog synths (of course, no bits and bytes there :))? Why do they sound different? Or, is there even a difference at all, and it's rather all in the way how fast the envelopes are, or, how the filter, or filter resonance behaves? Never quite understood why some synths have so much bang, and why others sound thin like paper, in those regards. What i also don't get is how the envelope stages can behave so different. In Dune 1/CM, for example, with similar settings, it always sounded as if the envelope stages, the sustain cuts off, or swallows the sound. I'll do a sound example later, if it isn't clear what i mean.

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
17055 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:45 am

It's all in the shape of the curve curve, and in digital realm, amount of quantization. Early digital envelopes didn't use an awful lot of bits to represent amplitude so you got steps in the curve (or also in case of Kurzweils, low refresh rate of envelopes, so you can't really get them clicky enough because the microcontroller used to calculate all the modulations is refreshed at like 50 Hz or something :)). This is absolutely not a problem with plugin envelopes, since you can use 64-bit floats to represent amplitude, and that is a FUCKTON of amplitude levels, way more than human ear can possibly discern.

chk071
KVRAF
17203 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:50 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:45 am
It's all in the shape of the curve curve, and in digital realm, amount of quantization. Early digital envelopes didn't use an awful lot of bits to represent amplitude so you got steps in the curve (or also in case of Kurzweils, low refresh rate of envelopes, so you can't really get them clicky enough because the microcontroller used to calculate all the modulations is refreshed at like 50 Hz or something :)).
I see. That makes a lot of sense, when i take a look at earlier soft synths.

Not sure if it really isn't an issue anymore though. Or why some synths sound so creamy, and organic, when you add some fast filter decay, while others give you a lame and tame "thump" sound. Even when you compare Spire, which isn't exactly a great analog emulation, with something like Retrologue, for example, the difference is very apparent.

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12220 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:14 am

Interesting...

AHDSR: The 'H' is a hold phase where the envelope output remains at the maximum level between the end of the attack and the beginning of the decay. This emulates an inadvertent feature of the early Minimoog envelope generators, which due to a design issue, had a short pause between the end of the attack and the beginning of the decay. It was found that this was particularly effective at producing "punchy" bass sounds, and accounts for some of the Minimoog's reputation as being especially good for bass patches.

http://electronicmusic.wikia.com/wiki/E ... _generator

Maybe that means that actually slower envelopes sound punchier because the ear/brain has more time to identify the peak 8)

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EvilDragon
KVRAF
17055 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:02 am

chk071 wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:50 am
Not sure if it really isn't an issue anymore though. Or why some synths sound so creamy, and organic, when you add some fast filter decay, while others give you a lame and tame "thump" sound.
Do note that envelope on its own is just one part of equation. Filter's response to modulation also has to be taken into account.

User avatar
david.beholder
KVRian
1478 posts since 13 Sep, 2007

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:37 am

Urs wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:22 am
david.beholder wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:35 pm
Urs, btw I remember talks about Release in Moog Envs and Alpha Juno Envs in Diva? Are they probable to happen?
A substantial Diva update is going to be the next major project after Zebra3. It'll be some time before we get into this. Small changes may happen before, but I don't think it'll be new envelope modules.

(Diva is also our by far top selling product, it doesn't seem wise to rush any major changes)
Well neither of this is major and not going to change perspective of Diva but I understand importance of Z3.
Image Murderous duck!

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12220 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:15 am

I saw someone bumping his thread in which he is asking 140 euros for Diva in the market place and I was just about to write that it is a bit much. Just to make sure I checked the site before posting and it says it is 179 Euros. Wasn't it like 150 euros some time ago? Or am I confusing it with something else?

Anyway, I find the pricing a bit odd: Imho Repro sounds better than Diva, its effects are better, you get two plugins, albeit related ones, yet it is only 149 euros, the same as Hive. Zebra seems much more capable than Diva, yet it is only 20 euros more than Diva.

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zvenx
KVRAF
6628 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:19 am

Diva is several synths in one though.....
Maybe Repro is underpriced :)

The cost changed when they changed all pricing to be in euros and already include VAT.
rsp
sound sculptist

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12220 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 am

Did all prices change? I think Hive for instance has always been that price after the introduction period.

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zvenx
KVRAF
6628 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:28 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:26 am
Did all prices change? I think Hive for instance has always been that price after the introduction period.
I think so....I believe only Ace was previously priced in Euros+vat..The rest in US $

Change of currency in our shop

June 18, 2018

On July 2nd 2018 we will be switching the reference currency in our online shop from USD to EUR* and all prices will appear tax-inclusive. For instance, what is currently "129$ + applicable taxes" will simply appear as "129€". This is the total price for everyone, whether tax is included or not.

The vast majority of our customers needs to pay VAT or GST anyway. For most of you around the world, our stuff will get slightly cheaper (we reckon 5% on average). For others it will become slightly more expensive (5-15%, depending on how much or how little VAT you paid before). Check out our Newsletter Special to help with the transition.

(* When Urs started the shop back in 2002, the Euro was so new that he decided to quote prices in USD. Today it makes more sense for a European company to choose the Euro, including VAT, as new legislation urges us to do that. We could have devised a technical solution, but that wouldn't have been easy. Besides, we would rather spend the time developing plug-ins!)


rsp
sound sculptist

egbert101
KVRAF
2097 posts since 13 Jun, 2014

Re: Diva and Zebra questions

Post Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:21 pm

Ugh, why no love for ACE!

Punchy basses, beautiful pads, strong instrument.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFMtBpBR4M
No rest for the wicked.

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