Why you left VSTs?

[TheMaestro]

I made my first synth from scratch. Drew the circuit board, soldered all the components, and even cut out and bent the metal case around it.

[BONES]

Hardware often seems more intentionally and thoughtfully designed than software does. A module is more limited and fixed in a lot of ways than software, but that means it's more focused. You can't just tack features on willy-nilly or add another three pages of knobs.

But that's exactly what you do, what modular is all about. And anything you can say about modular hardware you can also apply to Reaktor or SynthEdit and other software applications of a similar ilk. Conversely, there is plenty about Reaktor and SynthEdit that you can't say about modular hardware. e.g. Save and recall any set-up instantly. Even the free Reaktor Blocks has more to offer than modular hardware (and is probably a closer match, too).

There are of course some exceptionally well designed software synths, but many of those take their cues from imitating hardware synths.

Which in turn have taken their inspiration from earlier hardware synths. It's called evolution.

Still, it's rare for a software synth to be as laser-focused as something like the 0-Coast or Lyra-8

If by "focused" you mean "not versatile" then, yes, you're right. But then there are things like the big workstation synths, too. In both spheres there are a range of options, from simple and focused through to elaborate and complex. Why you choose to compare one end of one spectrum to the opposite end of the other spectrum makes no sense to me. If you want a simple softsynth, spend some time with Audio Damage's Basic or u-he's Tyrell N6.

The software-based synth community has massive blind spots about methods of synthesis and composition. When you try to point them out, it's like trying to explain rock climbing to a 2-dimensional being from Flatland. I think you have to get into modular for a while to really see what's missing.

I will stand by this assertion, regardless of how woke some people believe they are. And I will gladly paint myself with the same brush, because of how much my universe opened up when I got into modular and it made me feel like a beginner again for a while.

Try getting into SynthEdit or Reaktor, you will be forced to go even deeper. But to me, when you start getting into that stuff, it ceases to be about music and becomes something else, something in which I have no interest at all. I was just saying to my band mate the other day that I can't even image the version of me that was so obsessive about SE. It has become such a foreign concept to me today that I honestly don't know how I ever managed to do it, let alone let it take over my life the way it did. it killed my creativity dead and is a big part of why I didn't write a single song for almost 10 years. I want to make music, not f**k about with shit that is only peripherally related to that.

But there's a lot of gear that is just very special to me, for which a software equivalent is nonexistent and unlikely to ever exist.

I would say the same about software and I'd probably be able to offer you a hundred times more examples. But I'll start with just one - Aparillo. The concept behind that one, seemingly simple synth is something no hardware engineer would ever even think of doing.

I'd really rather software developers continued to innovate in new directions, and to forge closer integration with hardware instruments, than try to emulate hardware. Best of both worlds.

I think most devs would want to do that, too. The trouble is, hardware emulations are much easier to sell. Look at Synapse as an example - it took them many years of hard slog to make a success of DUNE, but Legend was an instant hit.

Of course if 100% in the box is working for you, great! Maybe that's the medium where you shine. It's not mine. I guarantee some of you write funkier basslines, more compelling hooks and better beats than me, and you do it in a piano roll with VST plugins.

This is just your narrow-mindedness about what working ITB means but for a lot of people, the Piano Roll is just a recording device and everything they do they do initially in real time, using a controller. And there is a vast continuum between those extremes.

My point is, working with hardware is DIFFERENT, and that difference is of vital importance to some of us.

Mostly what I appreciate about the way I work today is that it is really not very different to the way I worked in hardware through the 80's and 90s. It still feels like the same overall process and the differences are mainly in the detail. The way I use Cubase is not that different to the way I used my Korg M1 and the processes involved are quite similar, too - play a riff I like, get it into the sequencer, add supporting parts and build it all into an arrangement. Taking it back even further, that's pretty much what I did before MIDI, except that I had to use buttons to program the riffs into a sequencer, instead of being able to play them in, and then I had to manually play a couple of parts myself to fill out the arrangement. There was a time when Cubase felt very different to that, when I first tried (and rejected) it when it was at version 3.5 (VST). But today it feels a lot more like the sequencer from the Trinity and has proven a very capable replacement for Orion, which felt pretty much exactly like the way we worked in hardware.

Notice that at no time did I mention anything about sound design. It's just not that important to what we do. Yes, I do spend some time doing it but that's mostly an ego thing - I'd prefer to use my own sounds than someone else's. It is also something that can be done as a separate process so that when we are actually writing songs, we have a pool of sounds already made that we can call up and use. But I don't find it hard or challenging or rewarding or anything other than time-consuming.

But I bet if you ask someone who really specializes in tape -- Marcus Fisher or William Basinski or Hainbach or blankfor.ms for instance -- if they'd give up their real tape for such a plugin, you'd get a very firm no.

So you can see their bloody-mindedness but not your own?

[BONES]

Yeah, I love Korean food, no doubt, but something about kimchi. You’d think I’d like it, as I love a lot of similar things... but not kimchi. My wife loves it though, there’s a jar of it in our fridge at the moment. She doesn’t love sour kraut, which I totally love, especially the fresh raw stuff. Takes all kinds.

You do understand that "kimchi" is kind of like "vegetables" and there are more than 300 different kinds of kimchi. Next time you are in Seoul, you should visit the Kimchi Museum (yes, they have one). Just as with veges, there are some kinds of kimchi I like more than others.

[BONES]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQnq9wIHqdI
Speaking of good bass right off the bat :

Urgh! hear how the bottom end disappears as soon as he starts to turn up the resonance at about 0:30s? That's what I hate about ladder filters. Bryan acknowledges as much by saying how good it sounds with the filter wide open. Gotta say, though, that overall it does sound really good. But it doesn't have a patch memory so it's a waste of time.

[pekbro]

I think a lot of the advantage gap we see between soft and hardware is biased due to our limited perspectives. Personally, I don't see one side as being overly advantageous. Looking at a preset system as an example. There is absolutely, no reason you couldn't design a purely hardware based preset system for any synth. Generally, it's not going to be implemented due to one cost or another but that's pretty much the only reason.

On to cost, how many of us here can legitimately say that their software based system is significantly cheaper than a hardware based system would be? I think, much like myself, if you were to actually tally you're past expenditure on every piece of software (including the hardware to run it) you might be surprised as to the total cost vs a nice hardware synth collection. Personally, I can say that the cost of my software collection outweighs the cost of my hardware collection by a huge amount.

Versatility, so you can easily change your software to suit your needs, that's great! Well guess what, you could do exactly that with hardware if you wanted. While it might not be easy for you to do, that doesn't necessarily make it more difficult. TBH, if you have the correct skills, I would have to say hardware would be much easier and far less work in regard to modification or re-design.

One glaring advantage of hardware is that, for all intents and purposes, purely analog synthesis is a mechanical system, E.g. it's never going to run out of processing power and bog down, track counts and system resources are meaningless to hardware. Even if both systems rely on electricity, in the hardware domain, use of electricity is mostly for convenience. It's quite possible to design a synth that doesn't use any electricity at all. I think (at least) with humanity's current level of technology, the same cant be said for software.

I think one thing that people tend to overlook, is that fundamentally, the two systems are not really so different. It's mostly just the medium that differs. With a software synth, you would use math and logic to accomplish your synthesis, where with hardware you would use switches and resistors in their place. In the end, a hardware synth is just the ultimate hard coded synth, and not vastly more than that.

[pekbro]

btw: OT: I had some Kimchi pancakes for dinner, similar to a potato pancake, but made from Kimchi and Mungo Beans. Mung beans to many I think, kind of like a small split pea. Quite interesting, spicy and delicious. I find it interesting to read about Kimchi here at KVR. Here it's just part of the local cuisine, it's always been something you eat (or make) since I was a kid, a comfort food. In Hawaii, Kimchi is just means to preserve food with a spicy sauce, endless varieties of vegetables, or meat and fish even. I like to cook with it myself.

[whyterabbyt]

offtopic/on subtopic : I still havent got around to making my own Kimchi. And finding premade stuff without fish of some kind in it aint that easy round here. I need to buy some daikon.

[Robmobius]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQnq9wIHqdI
Speaking of good bass right off the bat :

Urgh! hear how the bottom end disappears as soon as he starts to turn up the resonance at about 0:30s? That's what I hate about ladder filters. Bryan acknowledges as much by saying how good it sounds with the filter wide open. Gotta say, though, that overall it does sound really good. But it doesn't have a patch memory so it's a waste of time.

Yeah... I hate that too - The way the bottom end disappears.

I don't mind too much if they don't have patch memory because they are relatively simple synths (I'd rather they did of course). But on anything more complex like a Virus or Nord then it would be a deal breaker.

Incidentally mate, are you a fan of VAC?

[tapper mike]

I can live with optimized bread and butter samples on hardware more than I can with exotic flavorings of plugins. I can also live with one organized library on one machine rather than a disorganized and disjuctive collection of plugins found it my vst folder. I never seem to get anything done sorting through the endless array of synth and sample based library which dominates a separate hard drive.

[vurt]

im at the gfs house.
no access to my computer.
(or any hardware either).

[pekbro]

offtopic/on subtopic : I still havent got around to making my own Kimchi. And finding premade stuff without fish of some kind in it aint that easy round here. I need to buy some daikon.

I love daikon, a friend of mine is a daikon farmer interestingly. He makes killer daikon kimchi.
I think my favorite way to eat it, is cooked in a soup actually, with bok choy, kamias and some
kind of meat or seafood if desired (my mom would use beef).

[BONES]

Incidentally mate, are you a fan of VAC?

Not really. I had a couple of his early albums but the lack of vocals made it hard for me to bother with it. He also steals all the good movie samples before we get a chance to use them! We played with him a few years ago, when he was in Sydney, and I enjoyed his set a lot more than I thought I would. I should probably look up some of his more recent work.

[Robmobius]

Not really. I had a couple of his early albums but the lack of vocals made it hard for me to bother with it. He also steals all the good movie samples before we get a chance to use them! We played with him a few years ago, when he was in Sydney, and I enjoyed his set a lot more than I thought I would. I should probably look up some of his more recent work.

That's pretty cool gigging with him all the same. I think VAC are a bit hit and miss, not one of my favorite industrial outfits. He know his stuff when it comes to production.

I'd also prefer stuff with Vox, then I would, as I was a singer in a metal/punk band for years.

I had a gander at you bands stuff Novakill. I like what I heard... Heavy with attitude! Did you write those tunes and produce the music yourself mate?

Ta'.

[BONES]

No, there are two of us. My mate comes up with a lot of the musical ideas and I write most of the lyrics and do most of the production. The first couple of albums were mostly either my songs or his songs but since then we've contributed much more equally to each song and I think they much better for that.

[DrGonzo]

Fan of fan noise?

Oh dude... you should hear the fan in the Behringer Deepmind... that one is brutal

/C