EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

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mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Post Mon May 07, 2018 7:54 am

Not quite music related but no doubt very important to anyone who performs in the EU.

https://www.change.org/p/energy4europe- ... gelighting

I'm all for conservation but surely the EU are way off here. The cost of energy to replace would surely off set. Such a shame to have to throw out all this highly engineered, well maintained, pro equipment.

The petition makes a compelling argument, have a read. It's not like a shopping mall being lit up all day.

chk071
KVRAF
17016 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Mon May 07, 2018 8:12 am

mitchiemasha wrote: I'm all for conservation but surely the EU are way off here. The cost of energy to replace would surely off set.
Not only that. Imagine the amount of (non-regenerative) energy used to get - all the equipment there - get the staff and bands there - get the other stuff, like catering. And, last but not least, the spectators which travel there. Typical EU though. "Hey, look we do something… look, the lights are out...". You don't see the other sh**, so, the lighting is the most important, yet most neglectable part.

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Tj Shredder
KVRian
1220 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 5:33 am

After searching and finding the proposal, I can't find anything which would have the described consequences. Happy lighting...

stratum
KVRAF
1839 posts since 29 May, 2012

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 10:55 am

It looks like the jokes about the claim that they introduced EU standards regarding the size of bananas are possibly correct.
~stratum~

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12001 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 11:53 am

I don't know the details, but I assume such legislation has been made by people in the know, not pimps or bodybuilders 8) So there probably are good alternatives to what will be banned.
And why do Brits complain so much? They can soon use whatever they want thanks to the Brexit.

I remember all the complaints when the EU started to limit the power consumption of vacuum cleaners, but that no longer seems to be a problem now. Lobbying groups like to complain when they can't prevent changes to the status quo.

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 12:51 pm

fluffy_little_something wrote:And why do Brits complain so much? They can soon use whatever they want thanks to the Brexit.
If it's banned in the EU, prices for the lamps (bulbs) in the UK will still sky rocket, due to low production runs etc. And, I'm not complaining I just oppose the idea.

The petition was made by people in the know. Other leading organisations have also sent in responses to the new wording of the proposed EU rules. if it wasn't serious, i wouldn't of brought it to your attention. The EU seems to think, like supermarket lighting fixture, alternative bulbs can simply be switched out into these fixtures.
Last edited by mitchiemasha on Tue May 08, 2018 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 1:04 pm

Tj Shredder wrote:After searching and finding the proposal, I can't find anything which would have the described consequences. Happy lighting...
From the ALD (Association of Lighting Designers).

https://www.ald.org.uk/sites/default/fi ... 4Apr18.pdf

Here's the summary from the 8 page document

1. New regulations proposed for September 2020 will impose a minimum efficiency of 85 lumens per watt and a maximum standby power of 0.5W on all light sources (lamps or self-contained fixtures) to be sold in the EU.

2. The existing version of these regulations includes an exemption for stage lighting. The new regulations do not (though they do include exemptions for video projection, and suggest an exemption for stage lighting that appears to have mis-understood the light levels/power requirements of most theatrical lighting fixtures).

3. No tungsten fixtures meet this requirement. Many LED-based entertainment fixtures do not meet those requirements. After September 2020 no new stocks of such equipment can be supplied to the market in the EU.

4. Manufacturers suggest that the limits of optical design and LED efficiency mean that they will not be able to create certain types of fixtures that do meet the requirements by September 2020.

5. Nothing in the rules stops you from using existing fixtures. But bulbs can’t be supplied to market and once you can’t get new bulbs, existing fixtures become worthless – effectively scrap. It is unknown how long existing stocks of bulbs will remain available.

6. Replacing your existing fixtures might well mean replacing your entire dimming and control infrastructure.

7. All this for power savings that might be relatively small, given the way entertainment lighting is typically used, and will likely be far outweighed by the scrap created and the energy required to manufacture and distribute new fixtures.

8. Important tools from a lighting designer’s toolkit will be lost within the EU, some forever.

9. This will dramatically affect performance venues and productions of all types and scales, including new and existing (longrunning, long-standing rep) productions.

10. There are very few precedents for technologies to be banned if they are not unsafe to use

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 1:46 pm

Here's the 'call to arms' from PLASA to all their members.

http://www.plasa.org/img/ECO-Design-reg ... o-arms.pdf

Lots of valid points have been raised over efficiency to beam focusing. The new EU regulations totally disregard actual physics.

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fluffy_little_something
KVRAF
12001 posts since 5 Jun, 2012 from Portugal

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 1:52 pm

Adaptation is one of the major strengths of the human mind and a source of innovation :wink:

We also need such a radical limit for the fuel consumption of cars, like 1 liter/100 km.

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Tj Shredder
KVRian
1220 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Tue May 08, 2018 9:03 pm

Could you point to the original EU legislation instead of reactions to it? I could not find it...

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Wed May 09, 2018 2:39 am

Tj Shredder wrote:Could you point to the original EU legislation instead of reactions to it? I could not find it...
It's not legislation yet... It's this... The Eco-Design Working Plan 2016-2019
https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... 73.en_.pdf

The original legislation was fine but they're changing it.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p1j6x78xtozd ... 7.pptx.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p1j6x78xtozd ... 5.pptx.pdf

The old (July 2015)
https://ec.europa.eu/energy/sites/ener/ ... ghting.pdf

"The new regulations are those proposed for lighting as part of the Eco-Design Working Plan 2016-2019, and my understanding is that these would replace EU regulation 1194/2012 and related regulations (including 244/2009, 245/2009 and 2015/1428)."

Good luck reading through and understanding it all.

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Wed May 09, 2018 3:12 am

I did find some DRAFTs but it had this attached to it

"This draft has not been adopted or endorsed by the European Commission.
Any views expressed are the preliminary views of the Commission services
and may not in any circumstances be regarding as stating an official position
of the Commission. The information transmitted is intended only for the
Member State or entity to which it is addressed for discussions and may
contain confidential and/or privileged material."

stratum
KVRAF
1839 posts since 29 May, 2012

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Wed May 09, 2018 6:06 am

"It's time to review and complain if you will". That's what that text means.
~stratum~

mitchiemasha
KVRist
128 posts since 15 Aug, 2011 from teesside

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Wed May 09, 2018 9:53 pm

Yes, i was more concerned about the last line so didn't post it here.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4661 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: EU change to stage lighting legislation petition

Post Thu May 10, 2018 9:52 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:Adaptation is one of the major strengths of the human mind and a source of innovation :wink:

We also need such a radical limit for the fuel consumption of cars, like 1 liter/100 km.
It's true that most change for the better doesn't happen unless people are actually forced to act. However, it's important to be sure a new regulation can actually be accomplished within the scope of available technology AND physics. From the points made above, it appears this proposed regulation was written and promoted by people who don't have all the necessary facts. That happens sometimes.

Humans are actually very bad at adaptation to change, especially when entrenched systems are threatened. We certainly have the intellectual capacity, but the combination of individual resistance to change, and the huge roadblock of corporatism, has slowed all kinds of "it would be better for everyone if..." changes to an almost imperceptible crawl (or brought them to a complete stop... or begun reversing them, as in the USA currently).

Self interest and tribalism tends to beat global thinking most times.
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