About CLAP

[rafa1981]

So far, it's been pretty much impossible to get commercial plugin vendors to rebuild their JUCE-based software as native Linux VSTs, let alone make LV2s — even when you are clearly in a "shut up and take my money" mood. So just like you I'm interested to see how this will play out.

Some can easily compile them. The problem they mention is being afraid of having to support lots of different user configurations (distros and versions) afterwards.

[Urs]

However, dropping just VST2 support? We'd have no reason to do that for many, many years. And if we did, because we're open source and GPL'ed, someone would just put it back

IIRC the VST2 license and GPL are incompatible.

(also, I'm not fine with condoning/praising copyright infringement or whatever "someone would just put it back" would mean in our support forum - maybe you could clear that up, I'd love to know a legal way that none of the devs I know have heard of)

[dawhead]

IIRC the VST2 license and GPL are incompatible.

We use the "vestige" reverse-engineered header, and do not require the SDK.

There is room for a discussion of just how "clean room" engineered it really is, but I'm not going to get into it, at least not for now.

Keep in mind that no Ardour developer has ever signed/requested a VST (2) license, so whatever we do cannot violate it - we are not parties to any agreement with Steinberg. We did try in the early days to get them to make changes to make it GPL-compatible, but in the end Yvan and whoever rejected it, so we ignored VST in terms of distributed builds and source until vestige became available.

Also, it's not a violation of the GPL to distribute source code that can optionally use the VST SDK. The violation would come if you distributed a binary for which that had been done, because you would not be able (due to Steinberg) to provide (all) the source code.

[dawhead]

(also, I'm not fine with condoning/praising copyright infringement or whatever "someone would just put it back" would mean in our support forum - maybe you could clear that up,

I am not entirely sure what this part was about, but if it was about someone reverting a change to Ardour (which it might not be):

Were we to remove support for any plugin format (not that we have any plans to do so, the code that we would remove would all be a part of Ardour (*), and covered by Ardour's GPL license. Anyone could freely revert the git commits that removed it, or manually re-add it, without violating any licensing terms.

(*) that's not 100% true, because we do include both some Apple utility code to help with AU, and a good chunk of the VST3 SDK for VST. The principle remains the same, however.

[Urs]

IIRC the VST2 license and GPL are incompatible.

We use the "vestige" reverse-engineered header, and do not require the SDK.

There is room for a discussion of just how "clean room" engineered it really is, but I'm not going to get into it, at least not for now.

Hmm, yeah, this is exactly why we would like to deploy CLAP. Because we never want to be in the awkward position that we have to deal with some reverse engineered plug-in interfaces to keep going.

[Urs]

I am not entirely sure what this part was about, ...

Maybe it's a comfortable position you're in.

For most developers who lose the license to publish a plug-in format, all backups have to be removed including all version control histories that are available online, and surely all derivative work. Because in that event, one can not publish anything in that format anymore, full stop. As it looks now, this is going to happen to many of us, as the commercial license of the substitute format has a built-in expiry mechanism.

I understood your sentence as "who cares, someone can just put it back in". Maybe you meant that differently. IDK. Maybe that's okay in some kind of rebellious way of thinking, but for most of the people in our position, this is not an option.

We need an absolutely clean alternative that secures safe investment.

[prokoudine]

Some can easily compile them. The problem they mention is being afraid of having to support lots of different user configurations (distros and versions) afterwards.

There isn't one single VST3 plugin out there that I built from source code and went on actually using. Virtually every native Linux VST3 that I have around comes in binary. You download it, you drop it into the right folder, you rescan the folder, you use it. End of story. Maybe I have some privilege thing going on here — I don't know. I just never had the reason to recompile a VST3 to get it to work on my computer, that's all.

[dawhead]

I am not entirely sure what this part was about, ...

Maybe it's a comfortable position you're in.

For most developers who lose the license to publish a plug-in format, all backups have to be removed including all version control histories that are available online,

I'm a host developer, not a plugin developer, so the implication are somewhat different for us, particularly because we were able to do the development and release without ever requiring a license from Steinberg.

But also keep in mind that I've been involved in the open source movement since 1986, and what is happening is a text-book example of why a bunch of us chose to operate outside the assumptions that have dominated so much windows/macos development for decades. We built an entire operating system and even a modest pro-audio/music creation "ecosystem" precisely to avoid this kind of thing.

I'd also note that this is precisely why the GMPI effort took place back in the aughts, and why it was so tragic when the MMA f**ked that process up so badly that nothing ever came of it. We could have had an open plugin API for more than a decade now, one that genuinely reflected the needs of many actual plugin & host developers, but their idiocy doomed it.

And yes, Steinberg tried to get rid of the vestige header too. Most of us using it told them to f**k off, or just ignored them. They have no legal right to do so, and they know it. It didn't stop them from searching github for it and contacting lots of people claimng that they had some sort of rights over it.

[Jeff McClintock]

I'd also note that this is precisely why the GMPI effort took place back in the aughts, and why it was so tragic when the MMA f**ked that process up so badly that nothing ever came of it.

...except GMPI...

https://github.com/JeffMcClintock/GMPI (under construction, not all the code is up yet).

[glokraw]

Welcome to KVR! We need all the help we can get

My point is, all my questionable jokes aside, Robin has some quite intricate knowledge how both VST3 and LV2 work. He wrote a huge chunk of

Which is why, and exactly why, I propose this challenge, namedrop and proximity to Paul, included. For all the diehard dinosaurs clinging to the old and flawed, the time is almost here to

'pics, or stfu'.

If clap is worse than the other formats, the dinosaurs can surely prove it in public. Code now, or forever hold your peace. And try to make yast years profits stretch...

When clap takes off, which format do you think coders under age 30, (aka 'the future') and tight on cash, will trend to first?

And craning my neck to see the elephant in the corner wearing the t-shirt that says 'Yamaha uber alles', on one side, and
'Hardware uber alles' on the other. I think Steinberg is bluffing, desparate, and don't notice the big mirror behind them, being held up by the competition, revealing their hand to all who wander by
Good times ahead

[Urs]

I am not entirely sure what this part was about, ...

Maybe it's a comfortable position you're in.

For most developers who lose the license to publish a plug-in format, all backups have to be removed including all version control histories that are available online,

I'm a host developer, not a plugin developer, so the implication are somewhat different for us, particularly because we were able to do the development and release without ever requiring a license from Steinberg.

But also keep in mind that I've been involved in the open source movement since 1986, and what is happening is a text-book example of why a bunch of us chose to operate outside the assumptions that have dominated so much windows/macos development for decades. We built an entire operating system and even a modest pro-audio/music creation "ecosystem" precisely to avoid this kind of thing.

I'd also note that this is precisely why the GMPI effort took place back in the aughts, and why it was so tragic when the MMA f**ked that process up so badly that nothing ever came of it. We could have had an open plugin API for more than a decade now, one that genuinely reflected the needs of many actual plugin & host developers, but their idiocy doomed it.

And yes, Steinberg tried to get rid of the vestige header too. Most of us using it told them to f**k off, or just ignored them. They have no legal right to do so, and they know it. It didn't stop them from searching github for it and contacting lots of people claimng that they had some sort of rights over it.

How are the licenses different for host developers than for plug-in developers?

But yeah, you do open source software. We don’t. As depressing as it might be for you, we have different requirements. Those are met by CLAP. Our resources go there. That includes supporting some open source projects.

[Urs]

I'd also note that this is precisely why the GMPI effort took place back in the aughts, and why it was so tragic when the MMA f**ked that process up so badly that nothing ever came of it.

...except GMPI...

https://github.com/JeffMcClintock/GMPI (under construction, not all the code is up yet).

I like how there is an example of how small the plug-in code is in comparison to other formats, followed up with XML based parameter descriptions which add all the saved lines back in.

[tony10000]

I am not entirely sure what this part was about, ...

Maybe it's a comfortable position you're in.

For most developers who lose the license to publish a plug-in format, all backups have to be removed including all version control histories that are available online, and surely all derivative work. Because in that event, one can not publish anything in that format anymore, full stop. As it looks now, this is going to happen to many of us, as the commercial license of the substitute format has a built-in expiry mechanism.

I understood your sentence as "who cares, someone can just put it back in". Maybe you meant that differently. IDK. Maybe that's okay in some kind of rebellious way of thinking, but for most of the people in our position, this is not an option.

We need an absolutely clean alternative that secures safe investment.

This is the termination clause in the VST3 licensing agreement. I wonder if the VST2 agreement has the same verbiage:

"1. The Agreement shall run for an unlimited period.
2. Steinberg is entitled to terminate this Agreement with a 24 months written notice. For the validity of
the termination it shall be sufficient that Steinberg sends the termination to the last known email
address of the Licensee.
3. Steinberg is entitled to terminate this Agreement with a 6 months written notice if Steinberg publishes
a new version of VST Software Developer Kit subject to a separate licensing Agreement.
4. If the Licensee is in breach of any material obligations set out in this Agreement and does not cure
such breach by Steinberg’s demand within 14 days, Steinberg shall be entitled to terminate this
Agreement immediately. In such a case, this license and all the rights granted to the Licensee herein
shall immediately cease.
5. The right to extraordinary termination for good cause shall remain unaffected.
6. For the validity of the termination, it shall be sufficient that Steinberg sends the termination to the last
known email address of the Licensee.
7. Any and all prior VST 3 Plug-In SDK Agreements between Steinberg and the Licensee shall be
automatically terminated by signing this Agreement."

[Urs]

Yeah, that...

If you go back to some time early April 2021 in Github, that paragraph 7 also terminated all prior VST2 license agreements. There was protest within the community. The info given at that time (not officially of course, just forum posts) was that there would be another grace period. So they took it out - but from all we know they will put it back in, and then people will be forced to sign, or else...

[EvilDragon]

I'd also note that this is precisely why the GMPI effort took place back in the aughts, and why it was so tragic when the MMA f**ked that process up so badly that nothing ever came of it.

...except GMPI...

https://github.com/JeffMcClintock/GMPI (under construction, not all the code is up yet).

I like how there is an example of how small the plug-in code is in comparison to other formats, followed up with XML based parameter descriptions which add all the saved lines back in.

And I see a bunch of comments in the LV2 portion of the screenshot.