Thanks MogwaiBoy.
I understand what the ITU filter is supposed to do with regard to ISPs.
I'm not sure it is achieving the results you suggest though as per your -0.20 ceiling example.
I use the Sonnox Codec Toolbox for encoding MP3 files for certain online use.
This has a feature called Clip Safe which can be engaged during encoding.
In the GS thread on Limitless I recently raised the point that since 1.05 I'm not sure how well Limitless is coping catching ISPs.
For example when using a ceiling of -0.50 and only having max GR of 2db Clip Safe mode is reporting overs up to +0.40, on a regular basis. This is with ISP engaged, look ahead of 0.5, 8x OS and Clip being used.
With the ITU filter engaged Clip Safe reports overs at around +0.15
If you have the Codec Toolbox try it yourself.
I've reported this by email to Dave.
New DMG Audio Limiter - Limitless!
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- KVRist
- 459 posts since 31 Dec, 2010 from Perth
Latest Album :: https://beatworld1.bandcamp.com/album/well-be-right
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- KVRAF
- 4712 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
I wonder if chaining a second limiter before or after Limitless, for the sole purpose of helping to catch more ISPs, might be beneficial? I did some testing with Pro-L (oversampling) and Limitless and found that it only helped maginally.
I'm examining the mix in RX5 and I can see where the ISP's are occuring - it's from the snare in the second section of the song. The snare on its own channel is not clipping or even getting close to 0db, but it must be getting pushed through the master effects somehow, I suspect the ultra highs are the culprit. Probably taming them with dynamic EQ or multiband comp will fix the ISPs during MP3 conversion. The MP3 looks pretty ugly in RX5's spectral view and obviously the very high end (19khz and up) really suffer in the conversion.
I'll try lowering the ceiling on Limitless too.. -0.2 is probably a bit close.
But all in all, I was wrong when I thought the ITU option was a good "set and forget" option for ISPs. Definitely sounds better with it off, regardless of overs!
Maybe to put things in perspective, I'm referencing a bunch of Massive Attack CDs in RX5 aswell to compare with our music and guess what? Their ceiling is 0db and there are PLENTY of clip overs and ISPs. So it's not like their Mastering Engineer obsessed over it like I am
So I'm probably overthinking the whole thing and getting a little OCD. Still... it's cool to geek out on this stuff
I will check out the Sonnox Codec, thanks! Is it iLok dongle-only?
I'm examining the mix in RX5 and I can see where the ISP's are occuring - it's from the snare in the second section of the song. The snare on its own channel is not clipping or even getting close to 0db, but it must be getting pushed through the master effects somehow, I suspect the ultra highs are the culprit. Probably taming them with dynamic EQ or multiband comp will fix the ISPs during MP3 conversion. The MP3 looks pretty ugly in RX5's spectral view and obviously the very high end (19khz and up) really suffer in the conversion.
I'll try lowering the ceiling on Limitless too.. -0.2 is probably a bit close.
But all in all, I was wrong when I thought the ITU option was a good "set and forget" option for ISPs. Definitely sounds better with it off, regardless of overs!
Maybe to put things in perspective, I'm referencing a bunch of Massive Attack CDs in RX5 aswell to compare with our music and guess what? Their ceiling is 0db and there are PLENTY of clip overs and ISPs. So it's not like their Mastering Engineer obsessed over it like I am
So I'm probably overthinking the whole thing and getting a little OCD. Still... it's cool to geek out on this stuff
I will check out the Sonnox Codec, thanks! Is it iLok dongle-only?
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- KVRist
- 459 posts since 31 Dec, 2010 from Perth
Absolutely !MogwaiBoy wrote: Maybe to put things in perspective, I'm referencing a bunch of Massive Attack CDs in RX5 aswell to compare with our music and guess what? Their ceiling is 0db and there are PLENTY of clip overs and ISPs. So it's not like their Mastering Engineer obsessed over it like I am
I'm not obsessed with the ISP thing at all just to be clear.
I'm sure many of my favourite albums leak ISPs like a sieve!
I'm just interested when products say they do particular things.
I think Flux Elixir V3 is the best at stopping ISPs (and Barricade is pretty good too).
Latest Album :: https://beatworld1.bandcamp.com/album/well-be-right
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- KVRAF
- 4712 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
Heh! Actually I might try Barricade after Limitless and see what happens.
First I'm going to try converting the master 32-bit floating wave file to MP3 in Audacity rather than exporting as MP3 straight from the DAW and compare them both in RX and see if anything is different. Obviously not all MP3 encoders are created equal.
(Edit: looks like it worked for this guy - https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11929227-post13.html)
Most delivery places like iTunes, bandcamp, Spotify etc just accept your 24-bit wave and they do their own conversion anyway, so I'm probably just wasting my time. As I said, there's no ISP overs in the wave file... only in the MP3s.
I will probably come back in a few months after an epic journey to figure out what exactly is best practice on this ^_^
First I'm going to try converting the master 32-bit floating wave file to MP3 in Audacity rather than exporting as MP3 straight from the DAW and compare them both in RX and see if anything is different. Obviously not all MP3 encoders are created equal.
(Edit: looks like it worked for this guy - https://www.gearslutz.com/board/11929227-post13.html)
Most delivery places like iTunes, bandcamp, Spotify etc just accept your 24-bit wave and they do their own conversion anyway, so I'm probably just wasting my time. As I said, there's no ISP overs in the wave file... only in the MP3s.
I will probably come back in a few months after an epic journey to figure out what exactly is best practice on this ^_^
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- KVRAF
- 7402 posts since 17 Feb, 2005
Then they are not ISPs. MP3s apply filtering, which changes the phase and thus the peak levels, among many other undesireable things.MogwaiBoy wrote: there's no ISP overs in the wave file... only in the MP3s.
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- KVRAF
- 4712 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder
Really? oh silly me
But they are True Peak overs, not regular peak overs, so I didn't think it was normal clipping.
But they are True Peak overs, not regular peak overs, so I didn't think it was normal clipping.
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418 - KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
Yes, I'd imagine the new ITU filter does everything it does intentionally, and is meant to be used with broadcast in mind on material that doesn't need to be crazy loud. I can't remember but maybe it was automatically engaged in the newest version, which may be why people are experiencing surprise?
I can still get no overs or ISPs with the regular ISP protection on (in the main GUI) unless I am really smashing things, when backing off the Ceiling by another 0.1 dB or so usually fixes it. I'm generally not worried about a few ISPs when the client insists it's crazy loud, it's a trade-off we are prepared to make.
Conversion to lossless formats is another topic entirely. That's not just ISPs but ACTUAL overs resulting from the encoding. If you follow the MFIT guidelines you can be pretty sure you'll get no overs when converting to MP3 or AAC, but I usually just run MP3s through Replay Gain via MP3Gain, after the fact, which will reduce all album tracks by the same amount if any contain overs. You'll probably lose 1.5 or 3.0dB from the overall gain of a project, but at least the MP3s wont be clipping people's DACs. Up to you/your client if you think it's worth it. Swings & Roundabouts!
I can still get no overs or ISPs with the regular ISP protection on (in the main GUI) unless I am really smashing things, when backing off the Ceiling by another 0.1 dB or so usually fixes it. I'm generally not worried about a few ISPs when the client insists it's crazy loud, it's a trade-off we are prepared to make.
Conversion to lossless formats is another topic entirely. That's not just ISPs but ACTUAL overs resulting from the encoding. If you follow the MFIT guidelines you can be pretty sure you'll get no overs when converting to MP3 or AAC, but I usually just run MP3s through Replay Gain via MP3Gain, after the fact, which will reduce all album tracks by the same amount if any contain overs. You'll probably lose 1.5 or 3.0dB from the overall gain of a project, but at least the MP3s wont be clipping people's DACs. Up to you/your client if you think it's worth it. Swings & Roundabouts!
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- KVRAF
- 15135 posts since 7 Sep, 2008
No discussion on this in 4 years? Weird given the reputation.
I don't own this and have no interest in buying it* but have a question on the metering. Is the LUFS meter Momentary, Short-term or Integrated? I assume the latter.
* For the curious types: I'm happy with Pro-L2 but the tutorial I'm watching uses Limitless.
I don't own this and have no interest in buying it* but have a question on the metering. Is the LUFS meter Momentary, Short-term or Integrated? I assume the latter.
* For the curious types: I'm happy with Pro-L2 but the tutorial I'm watching uses Limitless.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 12 Jan, 2016
Yes, it is integrated, and History graph shows short-termMushy Mushy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:29 am No discussion on this in 4 years? Weird given the reputation.
I don't own this and have no interest in buying it* but have a question on the metering. Is the LUFS meter Momentary, Short-term or Integrated? I assume the latter.
* For the curious types: I'm happy with Pro-L2 but the tutorial I'm watching uses Limitless.
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- KVRAF
- 15135 posts since 7 Sep, 2008
Great, thanksJopmanajop wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:42 amYes, it is integrated, and History graph shows short-termMushy Mushy wrote: ↑Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:29 am No discussion on this in 4 years? Weird given the reputation.
I don't own this and have no interest in buying it* but have a question on the metering. Is the LUFS meter Momentary, Short-term or Integrated? I assume the latter.
* For the curious types: I'm happy with Pro-L2 but the tutorial I'm watching uses Limitless.
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"
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Hermetech Mastering Hermetech Mastering https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7418
- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 30 May, 2003 from Milan, Italy
Something that has been bugging me since moving up to a 4k monitor, is now Limitless (and EQuilibrium) GUIs are just too tiny, even when maxed out. The graphs are all fine, and I can put EQuilibrium into full screen mode if needed, but the text is nearly unreadable in places. Any chance Dave or Krzysztof might consider adding HiDPI options? Or is it there somewhere in the settings already, and I'm just not seeing it (because it's too small, haha...)
