2CAudio Precedence | 1.5 | Move Out Of Flatland. Take Precedence.

[Andrew Souter]

Gain mixing, and automation of gain, would remain the same most likely, although it is possible to use extreme "Gain Loss" values now in Precedence using the "X-Range" setting, and in this mode it is hypothetically possible to simply keep track faders at 0.0dB and Precedence will handle gain mixing also. We consider this an extra bonus feature. I guess most users will want to continue to use the DAW track faders for gain adjustment particularly bc gain if often automated.

You have the technology to bring the whole system even further:

- You could develop a gain plugin that would normally sit at the end of the insert-chain (but could be moved anywhere in the chain for added flexibility)

- you could make it controllable from within Precedence. Crtl+ up/down arrow (or dragging the node) would increase/decrease the gain

- and the node would visually reflect that by becoming more colour-intensive with increasing gain


I assume that would not take you very long to develop and I bet most of those owning Precendence would purchase it if you sold it for something like 15-20$

yes, of course we'd love to expand the system even more over time.

Note, at the moment Precedence already has two ways to control gain:

1) the Input Gain knob

2) gain changes can be introduced according to Distance. You can use the X-Range mode to achieve pretty large gain changes if you wish, and in this mode you might not need to use the DAW mixer faders at all. you would use the Precedence Position display to control gain also. I would guess most users will want to keep Gain loss in the normal mode with conservative values though, so that level balancing is still the primary domain of the DAW mixer where it can be easily automated etc also.

I could image we could add some kind of key-command to the Position display to adjust Input Gain though, which would be similar to what you suggest. Maybe adjusting brightness of the node also. That is feasible. We can think about it.

note it really does not matter where you place gain changes in the P-B signal change. Before, After, In-between, etc, is all identical in result. So changing Input Gain in P is all that is needed. And this would also be identical to changing the daw mixer gain.


also note a cool thing I don't think I mentioned yet: in Breeze 2.5, when using Link Mode, the Gain slider, affects ONLY the wet/verb/tail level. It does NOT apply to the entire chain as it does in the standard mode. Since in the Link Mode, Breeze is suggested to follow Precedence, changing Input Gain in Precedence changes the resulting gain for the whole chain. Therefore input/output Gain in Breeze is redundant in this workflow, so we repurposed the Gain slider, to allow easy adjustment of the Wet Gain, which is very useful. Particularly when using Global Broadcast, changing Wet Gain in Breeze, can function the same way as if a single verb was on a bus, and you adjust the buss level to globally adjust the verb level on all tracks. This is intended for fine-tuning the verb level.

thus if you don't like the exact wet/dry balance created automatically by the Distance value, you can make quick adjustment with the Gain slider in Breeze also. It's also useful to compensate more extreme filter settings. Overall it's very convenient to have a fast secondary way to adjust this.

[Andrew Souter]

Well, and then of course you could also add functions like:

(say)

shift-clicking a node mutes/unmutes the track

crtl+shift solos/unsolos it

alt-click phase inverts it

With the change always being reflected by the node(s) of course.

Then of course functions like solo-in-front, un-mute/un-solo all etc. could follow.

Solo/Mute functionality is def on the wish-list!

[Sampleconstruct]

Video demo using a simple english horn phrase ((Iconica) as input source, positioning the 4 instruments with Precedence (Breeze 2 in link mode so it follows Precedence), all instances are controlled via the plug-ins with ID1 (Group+Broadcast modes are activated).

https://youtu.be/YnLr9UqMYy0

[Andrew Souter]

- and the node would visually reflect that by becoming more colour-intensive with increasing gain

actually another similar thing we'd like to do is to effectively show signal levels in the non-selected instances too, most likely via increasing brightness that follows meter ballistics... this way you can look at the full multi-instnace mix an easily know which instance(s) is/are playing. And since gain would effect the meter value, gain would be be represented somewhat by this too.

[Andrew Souter]

Video demo using a simple english horn phrase ((Iconica) as input source, positioning the 4 instruments

awesome!

love the musical phrase. sounds like it should the opening of Prometheus or something similar...

[Sampleconstruct]

So in this next example I used some harp phrases/sequences from my chamber music work Immanenz, again 4 instances of P/B all linked via Group/Broadcast and controlled from the instances in ID001 (this time with the correct UI of Breeze 2 opened). I moved the positioning around and changed reverb time/size while there was audio signal playing because I got carried away, thus the clicks in the video.

https://youtu.be/8TV1DUYXwd0

[jens]

I would guess most users will want to keep Gain loss in the normal mode with conservative values though, so that level balancing is still the primary domain of the DAW mixer where it can be easily automated etc also.

But if you developed and extra gain plugin, volume could be made easily automatable using it, right?

note it really does not matter where you place gain changes in the P-B signal change. Before, After, In-between, etc, is all identical in result. So changing Input Gain in P is all that is needed. And this would also be identical to changing the daw mixer gain.

It makes a difference as soon as you put non-linear stereo-plugins (such as Waves Reel ADT and Eventide 910 and Instant Flager & Phaser) between Precedence and Breeze (which is where they normally belong, according to you, right?).

[jens]

- and the node would visually reflect that by becoming more colour-intensive with increasing gain

actually another similar thing we'd like to do is to effectively show signal levels in the non-selected instances too, most likely via increasing brightness that follows meter ballistics... this way you can look at the full multi-instnace mix an easily know which instance(s) is/are playing. And since gain would effect the meter value, gain would be be represented somewhat by this too.

Sounds good to me (but to be honest not nearly as good as my idea with the extra plugin )

[jens]

Solo/Mute functionality is def on the wish-list!

[Andrew Souter]

But if you developed and extra gain plugin, volume could be made easily automatable using it, right?

I suppose. But InputGain in P could also be automatable fairly easily. That's one of the few that is easy to automate. Gain in Breeze could be also, which would be Wet Gain when using Link Mode. Those could be cool to automate for sure.

note it really does not matter where you place gain changes in the P-B signal change. Before, After, In-between, etc, is all identical in result. So changing Input Gain in P is all that is needed. And this would also be identical to changing the daw mixer gain.

It makes a difference as soon as you put non-linear stereo-plugins (such as Waves Reel ADT and Eventide 910 and Instant Flager & Phaser) between Precedence and Breeze (which is where they normally belong, according to you, right?).

no. For stuff that leans towards "acoustic authenticity" I would suggest Breeze be the last thing on the track and Precedence be immediately before it. Everything else before that. I don't remember ever saying otherwise, but if I did, I was wrong.

of course sound-designers and electronic music peeps can do whatever sounds cool, since acoustic authenticity is not typically the goal there. Heck maybe Breeze, then distortion, then flanger, then bit-crush, then delay, then Precedence is cool. That'd be quite weird. But sometimes "quite weird" is cool creatively.

[jens]

Perhaps I misunderstood. But the way I remember it, it must be somewhere here in this thread. let me dig it up and let's clarify.

[jens]

Okay, here it is:

So do you insert it before or after the reverb?

A good little pneumonic:

PREcedence

(although I like to think pronunciation sounds more like "preh-ceh-dense" than "prEE-cEED-ance" but I'm American, and I think maybe the Brits say the second?)

This is what Precedence achieves for you. Precedence precedes all of your other spatial tools. Precedence comes first in your spatial processing chain. Precedence will impeccably position your source sound laterally left-to-right controlling its azimuth angle using techniques that will work perfectly with all reverbs that follow it without creating unwanted side effects. Precedence will also pre-condition the direct sound to give it an instant sense of audio source width and spatial impression, similar to what early reflections are typically used for and will do so in a variable manner that embeds distance cues into the direct sound itself.

Of course this is the "proper" way to use it for realistic positioning goals. Using it after other spatial tools such as reverb, delay, etc, is not "correct" per-say, but sometimes "wrong" is cool for creative FX. For things like synths that are not particularly natural to begin with, there are less rules.

(colour coding by me)

[Andrew Souter]

somehow I knew that was coming...

but I meant that it should come before reverbs (i.e. spatial tools). the quote was in response to the question "should it come before of after Breeze?".

linear (i mean here zero or little distortion/saturation, not "linear phase") eqs don't really matter where they are in the chain. may as well put them before P-B, but after the whole chain would be fine too. dynamics depends really on the style of music and how aggressively you want to hit them, and if you want to compress the verb tail etc, but before P-B is generally the norm. Freaky stuff can go wherever it likes bc, well, it's freaky and it does as it likes. ...which agrees with what I said above and in the second quote in red.

this is just a suggestion. if someone discovers there is magic gold gust to be found by inserting non-lin dynamics between P and B, hey, great, let us know and we'd love to try too. it could be cool indeed as the modulation in P might make the non-lin behavior in the dynamics processor a little more "organic" and time varying...

btw I have since been educated on the difference between pneumonic and mnemonic and have sought redemption for the error in my evil spelling ways.

[Andrew Souter]

this is just a suggestion. if someone discovers there is magic gold gust to be found by inserting non-lin dynamics between P and B, hey, great, let us know and we'd love to try too. it could be cool indeed as the modulation in P might make the non-lin behavior in the dynamics processor a little more "organic" and time varying...

btw, this is another cool thing about doing things the way we did by keeping P its own plug instead of embedding into the reverb engines for some super megalithic product like we also considered. this way users are free to try these kind of things such as inserting 3rd party plugs between P and B, and maybe there is something cool to be found. It is certainly possible.

[jens]

somehow I knew that was coming...

So there you have - you even knew yourself that you weren't really fully congruent

but I meant that it should come before reverbs (i.e. spatial tools)

No, you mentioned

spatial tools such as reverb, delay, etc

So please could you clarify that further?

Is Waves' Reel ADT a "spatial tool" or not?

Is a Leslie simulation a spatial tool or not?

A stereo flanger?

A stereo tape delay (per-channel wow&flutter and all)?

Audiority's Tube Modulator, which can do heavy spatial processing?

("Tube Modulator spatial effects includes a panner, a rotary speaker and a wide stereo “wow & flutter” simulators.[sic!]")

All these will be highly non-linear (assuming the Flanger isn't a generic digital one).


Sorry, but I am German, so you have to be exact&precise and coherent with me...