I'm curious if rack latency is addressed in T2.
(I still haven't figured out how racks, though great conceptually, are actually usable: as soon as one is placed on more than one track, latency is introduced to all tracks holding the rack... and not just to the wet signal, to the entire signal.)
T2 and rack latency
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- KVRAF
- 2565 posts since 30 Mar, 2004 from Phoenix AZ USA
Good point.
I want to know too.
I want to know too.
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- KVRist
- 146 posts since 14 May, 2004 from Orygone
This may or may not be useful info to you, but here goes anyway...
Using racks I have created a set of preset effects chains, some containing as many as 6 serial or parallel effects. And while I have heard many people state that they have latency problems with racks, I have experenced no noticable latency problems. as a matter of fact, the only latency problems I have experienced have been with known high latency VSTs. eg...SIR convolution reverb. These plugs have latency issues regardless of whether they are in a rack or not..
While it is possible that this can be attributed to the power of my system, I doubt that this is the case since I am running a pretty basic system. ( 2.8 g celeron, 512 meg ram, 80g internal HD, 140g usb external HD.)
That leaves us with the sound card, which again is pretty basic (M-Audio Audiophile 24/96).
What I'm getting at here is that Tracktion may not be the cause of your latency issue. The problem could be something in your system, your sound card, or even the VSts you are using...
I do know for a fact that most standard computer sound cards ( ie. sound blaster) have serious latency problems and "on-board" sound systems have similar problems..
Like I said, I don't know if any of this will help or even applies to your siyuation, but I just thought I would put it out there...
Good luck..
Using racks I have created a set of preset effects chains, some containing as many as 6 serial or parallel effects. And while I have heard many people state that they have latency problems with racks, I have experenced no noticable latency problems. as a matter of fact, the only latency problems I have experienced have been with known high latency VSTs. eg...SIR convolution reverb. These plugs have latency issues regardless of whether they are in a rack or not..
While it is possible that this can be attributed to the power of my system, I doubt that this is the case since I am running a pretty basic system. ( 2.8 g celeron, 512 meg ram, 80g internal HD, 140g usb external HD.)
That leaves us with the sound card, which again is pretty basic (M-Audio Audiophile 24/96).
What I'm getting at here is that Tracktion may not be the cause of your latency issue. The problem could be something in your system, your sound card, or even the VSts you are using...
I do know for a fact that most standard computer sound cards ( ie. sound blaster) have serious latency problems and "on-board" sound systems have similar problems..
Like I said, I don't know if any of this will help or even applies to your siyuation, but I just thought I would put it out there...
Good luck..
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
During realtime usage, there is no difference whatsoever if something's in a rack or not. Big latency is big latency outside a rack, too.
What people want, though, is PDC for racks. When you play back your recordings, the whole edit is 'delayed' so that the latency is compensated for and everything plays back smoothly, even if you had 5 seconds of latency, the track just wouldn't start for 5 seconds after pressing 'play'.
But inside racks there is allegedly no PDC. I wouldn't know because I seem to use zero- or low-latency plug-ins, so it's never been an issue. But taking the extreme example of 5 seconds, that means that without PDC, the track would start and then 5 seconds later (minus the amount of properly-calculated PDC outside of racks) you would hear the effect of that huge-latency plug-in.
Not ideal.
Greg
What people want, though, is PDC for racks. When you play back your recordings, the whole edit is 'delayed' so that the latency is compensated for and everything plays back smoothly, even if you had 5 seconds of latency, the track just wouldn't start for 5 seconds after pressing 'play'.
But inside racks there is allegedly no PDC. I wouldn't know because I seem to use zero- or low-latency plug-ins, so it's never been an issue. But taking the extreme example of 5 seconds, that means that without PDC, the track would start and then 5 seconds later (minus the amount of properly-calculated PDC outside of racks) you would hear the effect of that huge-latency plug-in.
Not ideal.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Racks do have PDC. The only time I've had a problem is when I try to send one output of a multi output rack to a plug like SIR.
Thats fair enough though: in that particular case Tracktion would have needed to know which MIDI notes corresponded to the drum hits that were routed to that particular out, and shift just those accordingly. IIRC I cured the delay problem by simply adding sends to the rack's other outputs also, with send levels set to zero..
Most of the time PDC works perfectly.
Thats fair enough though: in that particular case Tracktion would have needed to know which MIDI notes corresponded to the drum hits that were routed to that particular out, and shift just those accordingly. IIRC I cured the delay problem by simply adding sends to the rack's other outputs also, with send levels set to zero..
Most of the time PDC works perfectly.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
I don't notice latency when I use my simpleton's understanding of racks.
Like edelweiss, I use racks mainly as a preset effects chain. I did post a guide here back a month or so ago. Oh yes, here it is:
My simpleton rack effect chain guide
-Scott[/url]
Like edelweiss, I use racks mainly as a preset effects chain. I did post a guide here back a month or so ago. Oh yes, here it is:
My simpleton rack effect chain guide
-Scott[/url]
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 263 posts since 12 Mar, 2004 from LA CA USA
They absolutely do not. Or if they do it doesn't work correctly...platinumears wrote:Racks do have PDC. .
After reading these replies I tested thoroughly. I put an empty send rack (that was doing nothing but passing signal) on a drum track and compared it a second and third copy of the same track with no rack: no difference. I then copied the send to the second track and it immediately threw it -- and the first -- out of sync with the third. (By, as was stated, the amount of latency the card was set to.)
Last edited by kL on Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 1527 posts since 3 Apr, 2002 from desolation row
definitely racks do not have PDC *within* the racks themselves. this is for certain. it is a pity if you want to use SIR or tls maximizer *within* a rack with multiple looms, for instance, as things get...messy.
it is the only thing i hope to be updated in racks.
it is the only thing i hope to be updated in racks.
...
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- KVRAF
- 2009 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Cornwall, UK
I get something like this execpt it plays insync but renders out of sync.kL wrote:They absolutely do not. Or if they do it doesn't work correctly...platinumears wrote:Racks do have PDC. .
After reading these replies I tested thoroughly. I put an empty send rack (that was doing nothing but passing signal through) on a drum track and compared it a second and third copy of the same track with no rack: no difference. I then copyed the send to the second track and it immediately threw it -- and the first -- out of sync with the third. (By, as was stated, the amount of latency the card was set to.)
It is out of sync in the rendered file by the size of the sound card latency settings.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
I can run SIR as a send effect in a rack without delays.
The only thing Tracktion can't do is work out which MIDI notes in a clip are ultimately routed to which outs. As long as I keep the PDC requirements the same for all outs of a rack, it works fine for me..
The only thing Tracktion can't do is work out which MIDI notes in a clip are ultimately routed to which outs. As long as I keep the PDC requirements the same for all outs of a rack, it works fine for me..
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- KVRAF
- 2009 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Cornwall, UK
I just did a similar test and got the same resultkL wrote:They absolutely do not. Or if they do it doesn't work correctly...
After reading these replies I tested thoroughly. I put an empty send rack (that was doing nothing but passing signal) on a drum track and compared it a second and third copy of the same track with no rack: no difference. I then copied the send to the second track and it immediately threw it -- and the first -- out of sync with the third. (By, as was stated, the amount of latency the card was set to.)
I find it hard to believe that this is not an oversight and will be corrected in T2 (Beno?).-
- KVRAF
- 1527 posts since 3 Apr, 2002 from desolation row
platinum ears:
Yes, running SIR as a send effect, PDC works.
But try loading a multiout plug-in into a rack, say a drum sampler. set up 2 stereo outputs. Route all sounds bar snare to outs 1&2 through a no latency plug, like a compressor. Then route the snare to outs 3&4 through SIR or Convoboy, or any other plug-in requiring PDC. Your snare will now be out of time.
In other words, when wiring *within* racks themselves (surely one of the key features of RF's, otherwise it is quite an overcompilacted send) PDC does not work.
There are at least 2 different issues with PDC and racks. there have been several threads about it in the past.I can run SIR as a send effect in a rack without delays.
The only thing Tracktion can't do is work out which MIDI notes in a clip are ultimately routed to which outs. As long as I keep the PDC requirements the same for all outs of a rack, it works fine for me..
Yes, running SIR as a send effect, PDC works.
But try loading a multiout plug-in into a rack, say a drum sampler. set up 2 stereo outputs. Route all sounds bar snare to outs 1&2 through a no latency plug, like a compressor. Then route the snare to outs 3&4 through SIR or Convoboy, or any other plug-in requiring PDC. Your snare will now be out of time.
In other words, when wiring *within* racks themselves (surely one of the key features of RF's, otherwise it is quite an overcompilacted send) PDC does not work.
...
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- KVRist
- 175 posts since 3 Feb, 2005
If I need PDC within a rack I usually use some simple delay like MDA that has delay time in milliseconds to compenstate the latency. I route the signal that doesn't have latency into MDA delay so it matches with plugins that have latency. The exact latency of the troublemaker-plugin can be checked by putting that plugin into an empty track and then check the automatic latency value of it. This value can then be used with MDA delays in rack. Final step is to allocate the total latency of the rack and set it correctly. This is not an ideal or sample-accurate method but it gets the job done.
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- KVRAF
- 3441 posts since 15 Mar, 2003
This is a known issue that Jules was made aware of way back when Racks first came out.
I was the one who first noticed it mostly because I tend to work at high latency settings when I am mixing not actually recording midi.
The latency in Racks is equal to the latency setting you are using and has nothing to do with plug-ins.
Put a multi-out drum machine into a rack.
Set each output to it's own output in the rack.
Put a midi clip on the track with a simple drum pattern in it for just 2 or 3 drums.
Put this Rack on 2 or 3 other tracks so that one track plays one drum and the other track plays the other drum (as if you were going to send each drum to a different effect on a different track. No effects used anywhere so we are just looking at the Rack and not introducing any other variables).
Put an instrument of some sort (a piano is good as it is percussive) on another track and add a midi clip with a few notes (preferably not on the drum beats).
Leave the midi clips in place.
Set the latency at around 40ms so the problem will be easily seen.
Render all tracks to one track (to one wave).
Now compare the rendered wave to the midi clips.
You will see that the piano notes line up with the midi notes.
The drum beats in the wave will NOT line up with the drum midi.
If you use Racks as sends and you use the rack more than once, you will have the same trouble. A non corrected latency added to your track that is equal to your latency setting. And that latency will add up for each extra rack you use.
This will give a smearing to you music even at low latency setting.
The only wat around this is to do everything INSIDE of the rack and not send things to other tracks for proccessing.
this is probably why there will be dedicated send in T2.
Hopefully they will work. I don't know what will happen with multi-out instruments. Building a multi out setup with all effects inside of a rack is troublesome.
I was the one who first noticed it mostly because I tend to work at high latency settings when I am mixing not actually recording midi.
The latency in Racks is equal to the latency setting you are using and has nothing to do with plug-ins.
Put a multi-out drum machine into a rack.
Set each output to it's own output in the rack.
Put a midi clip on the track with a simple drum pattern in it for just 2 or 3 drums.
Put this Rack on 2 or 3 other tracks so that one track plays one drum and the other track plays the other drum (as if you were going to send each drum to a different effect on a different track. No effects used anywhere so we are just looking at the Rack and not introducing any other variables).
Put an instrument of some sort (a piano is good as it is percussive) on another track and add a midi clip with a few notes (preferably not on the drum beats).
Leave the midi clips in place.
Set the latency at around 40ms so the problem will be easily seen.
Render all tracks to one track (to one wave).
Now compare the rendered wave to the midi clips.
You will see that the piano notes line up with the midi notes.
The drum beats in the wave will NOT line up with the drum midi.
If you use Racks as sends and you use the rack more than once, you will have the same trouble. A non corrected latency added to your track that is equal to your latency setting. And that latency will add up for each extra rack you use.
This will give a smearing to you music even at low latency setting.
The only wat around this is to do everything INSIDE of the rack and not send things to other tracks for proccessing.
this is probably why there will be dedicated send in T2.
Hopefully they will work. I don't know what will happen with multi-out instruments. Building a multi out setup with all effects inside of a rack is troublesome.
Last edited by P.T. on Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 263 posts since 12 Mar, 2004 from LA CA USA
This is what people sometimes fail to understand: even the smallest latency creates phase issues, which destroy the clarity of a mix.PT wrote:
This will give a smearing to you music even at low latency setting.
It's a shame this hasn't been addressed; racks are flexible and innovative in concept. They just don't work. That and the "first note missing in rewire" still being there in version 1.6+ are kind of scary. Otherwise I love the program and am looking forward to the new version.