T2 and rack latency

[valley]

This is what people sometimes fail to understand: even the smallest latency creates phase issues, which destroy the clarity of a mix.

Last time I ever used any hardware reverb, it had a delay that was quatifiably measurable in terms of milliseconds. Any digital device will have at least one sample's worth of delay. Most insert a lot more than that!

A for racks - four tracks, two with a pass thru rack, two without - all four playing the same loop.

Latency @ 42 milli-seconds

No flaming, delay, nada.



There is no PDC for:

- modular wiring inside of racks.
- delay-causing filters placed after racks in one or more tracks.


PDC works fine for:

- modular racks without delay-causing plugs
- non-modular racks with delay-causing plugs
- spanned tracks when no delay causing plugs are placed after the rack (which means two racks in series is a bad idea)[/list]

[P.T.]

Valley, how can I send you a file to show you the timing problem? The edit is about 950k.

If you don't want to see the edit then at least try making the set-up I described on the first page to see what you get. The timing is off.

[valley]

I do that kind of thing all the time without problem, but feel free to email it to me (if you still have my address).

[P.T.]

That's why I asked how to get it to you. I have not got your adress. Maybe you could pm it to me.

[valley]

pm'd

[djsubject]

pm'd

dont forget to test it in T1 & not T2 beta

You lucky T2 beta tester you

[valley]

pm'd

dont forget to test it in T1 & not T2 beta

Actually, in the interests of being a beta tester, I'd test it in both.

[djsubject]

pm'd

dont forget to test it in T1 & not T2 beta

Actually, in the interests of being a beta tester, I'd test it in both.

good call!

lucky thay have you beta testing not someone like me

PS. its good to see you back in action on this forum

[kL]

Last time I ever used any hardware reverb, it had a delay that was quatifiably measurable in terms of milliseconds. [/list]

I wouldn't use hardware devices with ad/da (assuming no parallel audio path) as inserts; only as sends.

Is it possible that our different results re:rack sends are due to some type of inconsistency in Tracktion's PDC? I'll try the experiment again when I get a chance, starting from scratch with a new edit.

[Pädy]

As valley has explained, PDC does exist for racks in most common situations. However that's of little use when it comes to live situations. I use my PC for Guitar lessons - when I add a rack filter (or the new Send/Return-filter for that matter) containing a reverb for instance, I double the latency. When I add another (let's say a delay) I triple the latency - and so fourth.
When I start with a simple instance of SimulAnalog's JCM900, I have the audiocard's latency - let's say it's 6 ms. With two rack filters in a row that sums up to 18 ms - clearly too much for live use.

Just something to consider for Jules for the future. I can live with the current state of rack filters, as long as the new Send/Return filters get zero-latency at one point.

Cheers, Pädy

[valley]

As valley has explained, PDC does exist for racks in most common situations. However that's of little use when it comes to live situations.

to a greater or lesser degree. If you have decently low latency and you only have *one* shared rack, it's usually acceptable (although I understand guitarists are more troubled by latency than keyboard players).

If I'm trying to use a rack as a send, and I'm also feeding some live sounds from an external synth through it, the doubled latency does not unduly bother me.

More than one shared rack though, and things start to feel lumpy pretty quickly.

[dealwithit]

As valley has explained, PDC does exist for racks in most common situations. However that's of little use when it comes to live situations. I use my PC for Guitar lessons - when I add a rack filter (or the new Send/Return-filter for that matter) containing a reverb for instance, I double the latency. When I add another (let's say a delay) I triple the latency - and so fourth.
When I start with a simple instance of SimulAnalog's JCM900, I have the audiocard's latency - let's say it's 6 ms. With two rack filters in a row that sums up to 18 ms - clearly too much for live use.

Just something to consider for Jules for the future. I can live with the current state of rack filters, as long as the new Send/Return filters get zero-latency at one point.

Cheers, Pädy

This isn't meant to be sarcastic, I'm honestly curious: why use a rack in that situation at all?

[valley]

just because you are playing a VSTi live doesn't mean you wouldn't want some reverb on it.

I don't know that I'd use racks for delay and chorus sends, simply because modern processors are such that the flexibility of using them as inserts is too great to pass up for me. Reverb though, a) sounds better when applied globally, and b) is way too processor hungry to run as a per-track insert.

[IIRs]

Reverb sounds better when applied globally.

Not always the case: even just different amounts of pre-delay on different tracks can help create more front to back depth..

[Pädy]

This isn't meant to be sarcastic, I'm honestly curious: why use a rack in that situation at all?

My favorite reverb is Ambience. Now, as you probably know it's not exactly light on the CPU. There's that preset I always use for emulating a recording room - and I'm really fond of that one. So the average session project consists of an BFD instance for drums, two, maybe three guitar tracks each with Guitar Rig or SimulAnalog's JCM900 on them and perhaps some bass VSTi. The drums plus all guitar stuff get their portion of Ambience - if I don't use send effects, that's three to four instances. I cannot freeze or render any tracks, because it's all live - I have to be able to adjust the amp settings, because I have different students with different guitar types and playing habits - plus I need to be able to adjust the tempo too, so they can learn the riff at a slower tempo, so no rendering of BFD too.
For lead guitar I like some modest amount of delay - I usually use Kjaerhus Audio's Classic Delay.
So, depending on the project and the way it got created (it all comes together very intuitivly) I could easily end up with two maybe three rack filters in a row. As I said earlier that's too much latency.
In energyXT or Cubase I have a reverb, a chorus and a delay inserted as send effect by default. It's very convenient to dial in some at will.

Cheers, Pädy