Reason MClass?

[drez]

You are over simplifying.

Your saying something like "take this application that has completely been opotimized for Linux and the 2.6 kernel and put "insert magic here" in between so that windows can run it. Writing a Shim to put in between is not a good idea. The Prop's haven't coded anything to the Steinberg VST SDK, so none of their own classes are going to be easy to wireup.

Have you ever done programming ? I think YOU are overcomplicating. Writing a front end would be nothing compared to actually implementing a synth algorithm and it could be done and finished within a week or two.

Yes. And every Shim I've ever thrown together has never had the same performance as a native application written specifically for the platform it was intended to run on (Read: Reason Modules run best on the Reason Engine). If it could be done in a week or two, then why don't people do it for all of their modules? What about Logic's modules? Why haven't they ported those?

Probably because it takes away from what makes the money for them...the host! You want the modules? Buy the host. Its good business logic and has worked for them.

Besides, the modularity with CV's is what makes reason so powerful.

This is the major rub, but i would still like to use some refills as is and due to their proprietary monolithic nature i can't.

Does your host not support Rewire?

[popsych]

You are over simplifying.

Your saying something like "take this application that has completely been opotimized for Linux and the 2.6 kernel and put "insert magic here" in between so that windows can run it. Writing a Shim to put in between is not a good idea. The Prop's haven't coded anything to the Steinberg VST SDK, so none of their own classes are going to be easy to wireup.

Have you ever done programming ? I think YOU are overcomplicating. Writing a front end would be nothing compared to actually implementing a synth algorithm and it could be done and finished within a week or two.

Yes. And every Shim I've ever thrown together has never had the same performance as a native application written specifically for the platform it was intended to run on (Read: Reason Modules run best on the Reason Engine). If it could be done in a week or two, then why don't people do it for all of their modules? What about Logic's modules? Why haven't they ported those?

Probably because it takes away from what makes the money for them...the host! You want the modules? Buy the host. Its good business logic and has worked for them.

1st. It's not a matter of native platform with plugins since they don't have a native platform. They plug-in to something.

2nd. The plugins of Reason are contained into a single .dll i think so that would make some difference in performance. I'll give you that

3rd. We both agree that it's doable but my point with the logic effects and stuff point is :

It's not the same cause with logic you're buying into a good host with the bonus of good plugins. I would NEVER have considered Logic for the plugs alone. With reason you're buying a crappy host with great plugs. Get it - They have a sad excuse of a sequencer so that's what i don't get. Why not make the modules plugins too and give others the choice of better host they're accustomed too e.g. as someone else mentioned. Imageline with FL

Besides, the modularity with CV's is what makes reason so powerful.

This is the major rub, but i would still like to use some refills as is and due to their proprietary monolithic nature i can't.

Does your host not support Rewire?

If you can't see that rewire is not the same as what i'm suggesting then there is no point in me talking with you.

And rewire is a much less efficient solution since yout put efficiency as a point.

[John Vulich]

A couple of comments on the comments:
JohnI don't know if you've played with the beta or not, but the combinator is an exremely impressive piece of kit. My guess is that you don't consider it a big deal. For me, it makes the upgrade. I could have left everything else out, but the combinator is awesome. If you haven't got to play with it, I hope you download the demo to see what you might be missing. I seriously doubt that you can do the things in Chainer that you can do with Combinator.

I have tried the beta. The Combinator is quite a nice addition however, IMO, It doesn't really add anything new to Reason, soundwise at least. It just makes the workflow (and sharing presets) much more convenient. Not a bad thing at all mind you... just not "earth shattering" as some would like to think. YMMV. And no I don't think Chainer is all together comparable but from what little I've played with energyXT I think it blows the Combinator away.

One thing that would be nice, somewhere down the line, is to see modular components implemented ala Vaz Modular, Tassman et all. I know this can somewhat be achieved now but it seems quite awkward to have to use 1 or 2 Subs just to have an extra envelope or LFO. Either way I just as soon make music than wait 4-5 years for this to become a reality. Speaking of LFOs, I can't for the life of me figure out why all the LFOs on (Reason) instruments don't have tempo sync capabilities. This is typical of the Propellerheads odd design choices.

My other pet peave is that I think Reason (and maybe Orion?) are the only audio apps on the entire planet now that don't employ spline based automation. Again another odd design choice.

The more I play with computer audio the more I realize that my composition style is more about creating loops, usually with Reaktor or impulse mangled "real world" samples as a sound source. So even though I really like the extremely flexible modular audio/cable paradigm of Reason, a lot, it just doesn't serve my working style very well anymore. Most of my work has shifted to Ableton Live, now that it supports VSTis and has probably the best automation of any audio app out there, second only to FL Studio (IMO).

So, I think Reason is a great program, it just doesn't serve my needs very well any more. Oh, and I just discovered how amazing sfz, with sfZed, is so I don't think I'll be missing the NN-XT much.

[John Vulich]

If only they would make a timestetching version of Dr. REX.

I agree 100% and have mentioned this a few times on the Props forum. The funny thing is is that someone basically accused me of "nitpicking" and asking for "esoteric" features!! LOL

Of course my response was "errrr...what do you think recycle and the 20 other beatslicers on the market are for? Must be a real esoteric feature when every daw includes this as standard now."

How long of a shelf life does Recycle have for god sakes? Integrate it please

Yeah, I dabble in (for want of better term) Dark Ambient so I find little need for beat-sliced loops. Hence my preference for a time-stretching app/module that can stretch sustained tones. Funny that the Props seem to want to get away from the image of being a "dance music" app yet all their modules seem to be optimized for that genre.

[lucille]

I think the reason module as vst begs an interesting
question: if you could have a Reason mod stand alone as a vst--could you implement Reason style
automation on a per mod basis. I think you could.
The question then is why vst instruments don't handle
their own automation, but instead rely on cc data like hardware. My life would be better if I could
automate albino like subtractor.

Special not to anyone who replies "why don't you just use rewire"?: rewire is immensely unpopular
as any casual reader would have noticed. People dislike the maintaining 2 files and hate the awkward
audio routing in almost all rewire implementations.

[_oswald]

Speaking of LFOs, I can't for the life of me figure out why all the LFOs on (Reason) instruments don't have tempo sync capabilities. This is typical of the Propellerheads odd design choices.

The only LFO I can think of that dosen't offer tempo-sync is LFO2 on the Subtractor. Both of the LFO's of the Malstrom offer LFO syncing, as does LFO1 of the Subtractor and the LFO's of each of the effect devices.

Minor correction and detour from the discussion at hand .

[John Vulich]

Speaking of LFOs, I can't for the life of me figure out why all the LFOs on (Reason) instruments don't have tempo sync capabilities. This is typical of the Propellerheads odd design choices.

The only LFO I can think of that dosen't offer tempo-sync is LFO2 on the Subtractor. Both of the LFO's of the Malstrom offer LFO syncing, as does LFO1 of the Subtractor and the LFO's of each of the effect devices.

Minor correction and detour from the discussion at hand .

The NN-XT also has 2 LFOs... one that is syncable, one that isn't. I should have been more specific.

Anyway, I'm sure that some Propellerheads apologist/sicophant will soon chime in and tell me what a complete moron I am for thinking this way and how the earth would stop spinning if these other 2 LFOs had tempo sync abilities.

Still, an extremely odd choice as far as I'm concerned.

[drez]

1st. It's not a matter of native platform with plugins since they don't have a native platform. They plug-in to something.

Exactly. Their native platform is the host itself. They "plug-in" to that host only.

2nd. The plugins of Reason are contained into a single .dll i think so that would make some difference in performance. I'll give you that

3rd. We both agree that it's doable but my point with the logic effects and stuff point is :

It's not the same cause with logic you're buying into a good host with the bonus of good plugins. I would NEVER have considered Logic for the plugs alone. With reason you're buying a crappy host with great plugs. Get it - They have a sad excuse of a sequencer so that's what i don't get. Why not make the modules plugins too and give others the choice of better host they're accustomed too e.g. as someone else mentioned. Imageline with FL

Well, I like the sequencer. It does exactly what I need it to do and it can be done quickly...to each his own.

If you can't see that rewire is not the same as what i'm suggesting then there is no point in me talking with you.

What would you be able to do with a Reason synth module as a VSTi that you can't do with a Reason module Rewired into your host?

And rewire is a much less efficient solution since yout put efficiency as a point.

I think that rewire is the perfect solution. You won't get the CV routing benefits if you use the plugs each as VST's. If you rewire reason as a whole and sequence the plugs "individually" from your host sequencer, then you still get to take advantage of all of the routing.

As for efficiency, I find that I can do alot of rewire channels with no problems. I think reason is much more efficient running a few rewire audio channels into a host then running a bunch of VSTi's individually.

What about rewire is "less efficient" to you?

[drez]

I have tried the beta. The Combinator is quite a nice addition however, IMO, It doesn't really add anything new to Reason, soundwise at least. It just makes the workflow (and sharing presets) much more convenient. Not a bad thing at all mind you... just not "earth shattering" as some would like to think. YMMV. And no I don't think Chainer is all together comparable but from what little I've played with energyXT I think it blows the Combinator away.

Did you get to play with the later beta's? The presets for the combinator that came in the RC's were astounding! Because you can automate any parameter now in the combinator instead of relying only what the CV capable parameters in the back of the units can do, more things are at your disposal...just like EnergyXT.

One thing that would be nice, somewhere down the line, is to see modular components implemented ala Vaz Modular, Tassman et all. I know this can somewhat be achieved now but it seems quite awkward to have to use 1 or 2 Subs just to have an extra envelope or LFO.

Yeah, I see your point. It'd be nice just to have a half rack LFO module. Combinator will tie me over because I can minimize that giant rack into a 1U easily now.

My other pet peave is that I think Reason (and maybe Orion?) are the only audio apps on the entire planet now that don't employ spline based automation. Again another odd design choice.

I completely agree. This one annoys me all the time. I've mentioned on the props board as well.

The more I play with computer audio the more I realize that my composition style is more about creating loops, usually with Reaktor or impulse mangled "real world" samples as a sound source. So even though I really like the extremely flexible modular audio/cable paradigm of Reason, a lot, it just doesn't serve my working style very well anymore. Most of my work has shifted to Ableton Live, now that it supports VSTis and has probably the best automation of any audio app out there, second only to FL Studio (IMO).

I'm with you. Live 4 is awesome and the automation is awesome. For me, it is the perfect companion to Reason because it handles all of the audio tasks and the Rewire implementation is flawless.

So, I think Reason is a great program, it just doesn't serve my needs very well any more. Oh, and I just discovered how amazing sfz, with sfZed, is so I don't think I'll be missing the NN-XT much.

Well, I can't wait to see how the new Factory Soundset turns out. I think it will open up the door to some super creative patch making. I don't use a sampler much other than to add string parts or what not, so I don't use NN-XT much for advanced functions. I guess I'm lucky

[olafmol]

In my opinion, the error is to call it a 'Mastering Suite'. What we're getting is a top class compressor with stereo sidechain (as a bonus the gain reduction amount can be output as CV - very useful), an excellent parametric EQ, a potentially very useful stereo imager that doubles as a frequency band splitter (the cut-off doesn't go quite low enough to be a top notch hi-pass filter, but still), and a maximizer that combines a brickwall look-ahead limiter and a warm, analog sounding soft clipper.

You could master a track with these tools alone, and many will, but I think calling it a mastering suite is a bit misleading.

i agree 100%, altough i couldnt get to grips with the compressor like i can with the UAD1 compressors...

Olaf

[soulkraka]

I dabble in (for want of better term) Dark Ambient...

big surprise...

[popsych]

Well, I like the sequencer. It does exactly what I need it to do and it can be done quickly...to each his own.

What would you be able to do with a Reason synth module as a VSTi that you can't do with a Reason module Rewired into your host?

I think that rewire is the perfect solution. You won't get the CV routing benefits if you use the plugs each as VST's. If you rewire reason as a whole and sequence the plugs "individually" from your host sequencer, then you still get to take advantage of all of the routing.

As for efficiency, I find that I can do alot of rewire channels with no problems. I think reason is much more efficient running a few rewire audio channels into a host then running a bunch of VSTi's individually.

What about rewire is "less efficient" to you?

First point afreed.

A synth nothing : appart from better automation, and using it in hosts with no rewire 2, e.g. logic 5.5.1 which i am using. An effect - Well i don't know if rewire three has it but you can't route the master's audio to the slave's mixer can you ?

Yes but rewire is already there - both could work together to get the best of both worlds.

Rewire is less efficient because :

1. I have to maintain 2 files as mentioned above
2. I have to have 2 hosts open - RAM and CPU not as efficient
3. I have to switch between both these hosts so i can work on my song.

I'm sure a couple more would spring to mind but no point in referencing them here

[Jeremy_NSL]

1. I have to maintain 2 files as mentioned above
2. I have to have 2 hosts open - RAM and CPU not as efficient
3. I have to switch between both these hosts so i can work on my song.

I agree with 1 and 3. Both are annoyances I wish Rewire could somehow fix. At least 1 seems fixable - let the Rewire host send file info to the slave so it loads the matching project file.

However, as for 2 I've seen no evidence of this. Looking at the task manager while a fairly heavy Tracktion/Reason song plays, Reason consumes almost no cpu or memory. And even if Rewire isn't quite as efficient as it could be, lets face it - Reason is so ridiculously cpu-light for today's modern cpus; with a 3+ghz cpu you would have to work extremely hard to actually max out your system. I've never passed 50% on my A64 3000+, and thats on projects that have insane amounts of devices.

[Meffy]

I think the CV is a gimmick/ration for reason users. "virtual CV" seems like marketing hooplah.

:-D That's rich. How extensively have you used CV/gate/trig routing in Reason?

[Stupid American Pig]

to add to popsychs rewire gripe list:
4) you have to close reason to close your project or host.