The argument that started in vurts song thread thread

[opiadream]

don't worry, S. Hamann, I can't even explain to myself why I make these random statements

you wouldn't happen to be a fan of Ionesco would you?

[munchkin]

I like Focus which is prog. I don't know how anyone can find them wankerage. I think that's just anti-hippie programming by anarchosydicalists (some of whom are my best friends ).

I just love lots of different types of music from Cage to Kylie. Aren't I broadminded? Anyway who cares what people think of tarnce it's still tarncetastic.

[dystonia_ek]

Art seems to be a good job for confused people. The people who have inspired me the most are those who set an example by just getting on with their lives.

Wise words.

I'm sick to death of music as a tool for personal expression, not to mention tiring and pedantic debates about what's 'valid' &c. Who cares, honestly? Music is one of the least interesting sectors of the whole area of acoustic phenomena, plus it's usually made by wankers with an axe to grind and a desperate need for attention.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sicklecell666]

Art seems to be a good job for confused people. The people who have inspired me the most are those who set an example by just getting on with their lives.

That describes me to a T. Only problem is I haven't gotten on with my life so much as spent my whole life trying to get on with it..

[CypherOne]

I haven't read the thread, but for me music is only a hobby. A damn frustrating one at times. What am I trying to achieve? Erm, better output I guess. Not after any sort of career, I just want to make music that I enjoy listening to and it's a bonus if others like it too.

[griels]

Music is one of the least interesting sectors of the whole area of acoustic phenomena

To you, maybe. To me, it's the most interesting sector. But not the ONLY interesting one. Some of us can appreciate a wider variety of acoustic phenomena

plus it's usually made by wankers with an axe to grind and a desperate need for attention.

Unlike that last paragraph?

[herodotus]

Why all this hostility????

C'mon guys, this is kvr!!!

We're all friends here!!!!

This is music we're talking about.

It is harmless at worst.

Why so much verbal violence?

[herodotus]

I just want to make music that I enjoy listening to and it's a bonus if others like it too.

Words of wisdom if any have ever been spoken.

[Lunatique]

This is exactly like the visual art world. Some people hate abstract expressionism, some think it's the only relevant form of art. Some thump their nose at commercial illustrators, while some think fine artists are a bunch of pretentious assholes. Some people cannot draw or paint their way out of a paper bag, but still call themselves artists because they can find garbage and junk and glue them together into a big heap of...err.. you get the point. Then there are people who could render pictures that look like photos, but that's all they can do--to show off their rendering skills. Then, there are the people inbetween these extremes.

Nothing ever changes. There will be trends, there will be personal opinions, and history will try to judge and evaluate and even try to wipe certain things out (they almost succeeded to wipe Bouguereau off the pages of art history books, and he's one of the greatest painters that's ever lived on planet earth). Nothing ever changes.

[duncanparsons]

..but not wiped out of the History of Google!

DSP

[Lunatique]

..but not wiped out of the History of Google!

DSP

Yeah, there's been a Bouguereau revival/rescue thing going on in the last decade. Prior to that, art schools completely burried his name, and taught all the conceptual/abstract/post modernism stuff they can shove down the throats of students. If a student actually wanted to learn how to draw and paint in the traditional manner, they tell that student, "We thought you wanted to be a REAL artist." It was a scary time for artists. Pseudo intellectual masturbation bullshit of conceptual art was the REAL art and if you dared to try to draw and paint in the traditional sense, you'd get a lecture from people "who knew better." I can't tell you how many older colleagues of mine who went to college in that time period told me horror tales of graduating with a degree in fine arts, but can't draw/paint better than a child, and felt like they were cheated out of their tuition. All they learned was how to spew pseudo intellectual masturbation bullshit with other "artists."

And frankly, some of the soundscape/ambient/experimental stuff reminds me a lot of that. Not all, but some. There ARE some really interesting stuff done in that style, but many are done by people who can't tell one scale or chord from another. Now, we can sit and debate what the definition of music or musician is, but the art world already tried to define what art is during those dark decades of modernism/post modernism--and all it did was produce a whole generation of "artists" that couldn't draw or paint.

These are my personal opinion. You absolutely do not have to agree. I just think the whole "there are no boundaries, no limits, and we are all just who we are" thing is a bit too....I dunno. How do we judge excellence if that's the case? How do we set standards? Creative endeavors will always be measured by some kind of standard for excellence. If you get away from that then everyone is a Mozart or Shakespeare or Michelangelo or Stanley Kubrick, and no one is truly special. Is that what we want?

[shamann]

How do we judge excellence if that's the case? How do we set standards? Creative endeavors will always be measured by some kind of standard for excellence. If you get away from that then everyone is a Mozart or Shakespeare or Michelangelo or Stanley Kubrick...

I thought we resolved this already, but it's a neverending cycle I suppose.

Why must we judge excellence? What benefit do we all get from it? And who sets that standard? Yes, yes, I know, "Society" does. Funny, but last time I checked, I was still a member of society, and I don't remember filling out the questionnaire to decide what excellence was. Mozart or Shakespeare or Michelangelo or Stanley Kubrick are all excellent on one scale, but compare them on a completely different scale and they are worthless.

...and no one is truly special. Is that what we want?

Why not? Why must one person be more special than another? Who the f**k is anyone to decide that? Haven't people been trying to erase this kind of bullshit thinking for the past two hundred years, by moving towards representational government, by putting an end to slavery and segregationist doctrine, by developing concepts of inalienable human rights, by trying to think of people as inherently equal?

You can stick a gun to my head, and I'll tell you you're special, that's what "Society" has always done, but that has nothing to do with an accepted form of excellence. Something to remember when considering fascist leanings, there has never been just one tradition in art, there have always been many, and not all of them give the same priority to "tradition" and "heritage" and "lineage" and "excellence."

You're right, any school that would ignore art based on specific techniques is shit, but the same holds true if you try to flip the relationship the other way around.

Or to put it more succinctly: you just suggested exactly what those art school f**kers tried to do to Bouguereau.

[Lunatique]

Ok, then lets for a moment imagine a world where standards of excellence has been abolished. No awards, no scholarships, no "Top 10" lists, no "Best of the year" of anything, no Olympics, no competitions of any kind, be it sports, arts, or anything else. Nothing. Everyone is just who they are, and no one is better or worse. That couch potato who watches TV 15-hours a day, drinks one six-pack of beer after another, farts into the cushion, picks his nose and wipes on the coffee table, living off of welfare and couldn't be bothered to get a job--is just as good as you are, in every way. Because, who the hell are we to judge any standard of excellence?

Do you like the world I just described?

[shamann]

Sure, why not? Why should I give a shit about belittling some nose picking couch potato? Live and let live, eh?

When was the last time "Best of the Year" reflected your idea of what was actually good?

And since when is art anything like sports? You run faster than the next guy, that is quantifiable. You paint a picture, all measurement becomes subjectively imposed. "Oh, but my line is clearly more excellent." Yeah, good luck with that.

And quantify this: Blue is the best colour. Go ahead, give it a try.

[donkey tugger]

That couch potato who watches TV 15-hours a day, drinks one six-pack of beer after another, farts into the cushion, picks his nose and wipes on the coffee table, living off of welfare and couldn't be bothered to get a job

What did I ever do to you?