Ok.. first off the suggestion to turn off the "show wave forms" feature did not help. Another failure after 2 hrs.
Going to my most recent "success" of a 4 hr recording. I have the following on my HD:
t1 4050007KB mono 24/96
t2 5400010KB stereo 16/96
t3 8100014KB stereo 24/96
t4 4050007KB mono 24/96
t5 4050007KB mono 24/96
t6 4050007KB mono 24/96
t7 4050007KB mono 24/96
t8 8100014KB stereo 24/96
t9 4050007KB mono 24/96
t10 4050007KB mono 24/96
t11 4050007KB mono 24/96
I'm sorry I mispoke about the 8gb file size for 24/96 stereo... it is actually 8100014KB 7.72 GB
The stereo 16 bit file plays but only registers/plays for 53 min.
The 24 bit stereo file creates a buffer size error in media player as do the mono 24bit. The stereo 24 bit file is showing 1hr 15 min and won't play in anything, and the 24bit mono file shows acurate time of 240 min but also won't play in anything.
I can however open both the stereo and mono 24 bit files in a simple wav splitting program (cdwav) and visually view them, but they just play white noise (scared the CRAP out of my cat) and when I split them they come out tiny (10-500 MB)and useless.
I thought this recording worked because I played back the 16bit track and didn't notice the time discrepency. I appologize for saying a "perfect recording" without fully analyzing the wavs.
However, the 4GB file size limit would not be a problem on a recording 1/2 this size... especially in the mono tracks. I think pady and the others are right about wav limiting the file size. I do think it is posible to write that much data because I have it sitting on my HD right now, but what can be done with it is beyond my scope.
I still think there is more to it than just that though. I'm doing a 16/48 test right now and we'll see how it turns out. If the only problem is file size, then I should be able to do 2- 3 hrs no problem at 16/48... I will post back.
as a side note... thanks jans for having my back, but fwiw I was in no way offended by pady's "tone" it's all good. I appreciate everyone who is willing to give me suggestions. I just want to get this worked out!
Matt
recording 2GB+ wav's in traction (title edited)
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
I just caught something... a mono file can only be 2gb and stereo can only be 4gb... recording in mono doesn't actually get you twice the time/data ... right?
Matt
Matt
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- KVRian
- 830 posts since 13 Oct, 2003
can the stereo 16bit file played back longer than 53 minutes in tracktion ? if yes tracktion doesn't look at the lenght information in the header like i said. but because some produces noise i come to folowing conclusion. tracktion records the wavs with first producing the header then streams the data to the files and when you press stop it writes the lengh information to the header. if the lengh is longer than 32 bit it overwrites the folowing information in the header so a damaged header is produced. depending on what follows the lengh information in the header it could overwrite the bitdeep or samplerate information resulting in terrible noise. so i'm sure you can nothing do against this behavior till jules fix it.
i need a lunch break
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
no, I think there was some garbled descriptions back there (mine included).I just caught something... a mono file can only be 2gb and stereo can only be 4gb... recording in mono doesn't actually get you twice the time/data ... right?
It works like this:
A wav file can contain a block of sample data that is no larger than 4GB. (The actual wav file may be a little larger than 4GB, 'cos the headers aren't included in the data chunk size.
The 4GB pie can be divved up in any way you want, but it can't be more than 4GB.
You have three variables: number of channels, sample quality, and recording length. Increasing the value of any of these three variables requires a corresponding reduction in one or both of the other two.
So if you want to record *very* long audio files, you need to either lower the quality or the channel count. If you don't need stereo recordings, switch to mono (of which more in a moment). If you don't need 24/32 bit or 88/96KHz then drop to a lower setting.
What you could perhaps do at a push, if you really need stereo is split your input device into two mono inputs (select the input and look in teh properties panel). Now record as normal, setting the output files to be mono. You'll end up with a separate wav file for each stereo channel, which you can recombine or whatever at a later date. Dunno whether this works, but it might be worth a try.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
Traction reads it as a 53 min file and also reads it as a smaller size 1177.4MB.aldi wrote:can the stereo 16bit file played back longer than 53 minutes in tracktion ? if yes tracktion doesn't look at the lenght information in the header like i said. but because some produces noise i come to folowing conclusion. tracktion records the wavs with first producing the header then streams the data to the files and when you press stop it writes the lengh information to the header. if the lengh is longer than 32 bit it overwrites the folowing information in the header so a damaged header is produced. depending on what follows the lengh information in the header it could overwrite the bitdeep or samplerate information resulting in terrible noise. so i'm sure you can nothing do against this behavior till jules fix it.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
Thanks Valley... good stuff.
I have to say I think we found the source of my problem. It is however a problem for my use. It is unfortunate that Mackie didn't understand this. I was told before I bought any of this stuff that the only file limit size would be based on the "horsepower" of my system.
On the brighter side of things... although I can't record 24/96 like I want to, I just had a succesful test at 16/48 for 2hrs. I'm going to try 24/48 and see if I can make that work. I still don't understand the spiratic saving of some tracks and not others, but I guess that is simply a limit to the software that doesn't matter anyways because thoes files are too big. If you in the development front want to make traction2 a better program, you should put in a way for files to auto split with -0- gap when reconstructed.
Man... this has been hell.
Matt
I have to say I think we found the source of my problem. It is however a problem for my use. It is unfortunate that Mackie didn't understand this. I was told before I bought any of this stuff that the only file limit size would be based on the "horsepower" of my system.
On the brighter side of things... although I can't record 24/96 like I want to, I just had a succesful test at 16/48 for 2hrs. I'm going to try 24/48 and see if I can make that work. I still don't understand the spiratic saving of some tracks and not others, but I guess that is simply a limit to the software that doesn't matter anyways because thoes files are too big. If you in the development front want to make traction2 a better program, you should put in a way for files to auto split with -0- gap when reconstructed.
Man... this has been hell.
Matt
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
well... for the record. 3hrs at 24/48 in mono seems to be stable, and with stereo tracks, 2 hrs is stable. Either keeps file size under 2 GB. Thanks for all the help on this!
Matt
Matt
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- KVRAF
- 2750 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from Raincoast of Grayland
Darn, I missed the dissertation...
What was that part about the hats?
What was that part about the hats?
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- KVRAF
- 1600 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Seattle, WA
Wow! This is perhaps the longest thread NOT about T2 in a 12 hour period I've ever seen. 
Hey mmmatt, welcome aboard and I'm sorry your experience has not been as smooth as you would have liked. It seems you've uncovered a few bugs here. I'll get these listed and put in the bug list ASAP. Hopefully we can get these sorted quickly for T2.
To summarize (and make sure I know what I'm looking for):
1) If you let Tracktion record over the wav file limit, curroption occurs of the resulting file.
b) Sometimes the long recorded files disapear after recording. Can you clarify for me, does this only happen for files over the wav limit? Or does it happen for smalller 'long' files as well?
Ben
P.S. I just realised that since you are new here you, wouldn't know that I work for Mackie engineering.
Hey mmmatt, welcome aboard and I'm sorry your experience has not been as smooth as you would have liked. It seems you've uncovered a few bugs here. I'll get these listed and put in the bug list ASAP. Hopefully we can get these sorted quickly for T2.
To summarize (and make sure I know what I'm looking for):
1) If you let Tracktion record over the wav file limit, curroption occurs of the resulting file.
b) Sometimes the long recorded files disapear after recording. Can you clarify for me, does this only happen for files over the wav limit? Or does it happen for smalller 'long' files as well?
Ben
P.S. I just realised that since you are new here you, wouldn't know that I work for Mackie engineering.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
heh... lota Mackie eyes here, if I don't know better.
It seems that the software is stable writing within the parameters I stated before with no dropped wavs. But I'll say that for sure when I have had 10 or 20 successful recordings. Here are my suggestions Beno:
Make traction 2, a usable program (for me and the lowly concert recording junkie type) by adding an autosplit feature, or... could I record to/edit a flac file? Ahh... flac without flac'ing... I personally flac everything for archival purposes, and upload/download purposes. I don't know if that helps the size issue being as it's just a wav with a girdle on, but find a solution... it is important. Answer to A is yes, but it is spiratic, and B is mostly untested as of yet. So far the length of the recording seems to, in no way, affect the stability of the file unless the file size is greater than 2GB. Needs more testing
To thoes of us who want to burn DVD-A from our masters, there is a NEED for at least 24/96. That is the limitation of the Mackie hardware so it should be usable with the software provided. If not, there should be disclaimers.
If you don't want people (mackie onyx customers) to assume things about traction, then get the proper info out to your tech staff. You guys should be embarassed that you didn't know about the 2GB file size limit... I'm embarrassed and I'm just the consumer. I asked before I bought the onyx system, and I asked while I was having problems and it. It took this forum to quote a "windows/wav basic fact", and that sucks. My brain has suffered from this 3 week long obsession to just record a 3hr wav... Mackie owes me a new brain
If you guys don't want the customer to think he is purchasing the software/hardware as a package, (as opposed to the mackie view of "its free"), then don't print the traction informaition directly in the manual for the firewire adaptor, and state that clearly in your sales liturature. Tell people what they are or are not getting, and nobody can bitch.
Thats it! Thanks again to the people in the forum, and Mackie... get your shit together. You made a GREAT sounding series of small format mixers, now put in the rest of the pieces in the puzzle without forcing them into place with a hammer.
Matt
It seems that the software is stable writing within the parameters I stated before with no dropped wavs. But I'll say that for sure when I have had 10 or 20 successful recordings. Here are my suggestions Beno:
Make traction 2, a usable program (for me and the lowly concert recording junkie type) by adding an autosplit feature, or... could I record to/edit a flac file? Ahh... flac without flac'ing... I personally flac everything for archival purposes, and upload/download purposes. I don't know if that helps the size issue being as it's just a wav with a girdle on, but find a solution... it is important. Answer to A is yes, but it is spiratic, and B is mostly untested as of yet. So far the length of the recording seems to, in no way, affect the stability of the file unless the file size is greater than 2GB. Needs more testing
To thoes of us who want to burn DVD-A from our masters, there is a NEED for at least 24/96. That is the limitation of the Mackie hardware so it should be usable with the software provided. If not, there should be disclaimers.
If you don't want people (mackie onyx customers) to assume things about traction, then get the proper info out to your tech staff. You guys should be embarassed that you didn't know about the 2GB file size limit... I'm embarrassed and I'm just the consumer. I asked before I bought the onyx system, and I asked while I was having problems and it. It took this forum to quote a "windows/wav basic fact", and that sucks. My brain has suffered from this 3 week long obsession to just record a 3hr wav... Mackie owes me a new brain
If you guys don't want the customer to think he is purchasing the software/hardware as a package, (as opposed to the mackie view of "its free"), then don't print the traction informaition directly in the manual for the firewire adaptor, and state that clearly in your sales liturature. Tell people what they are or are not getting, and nobody can bitch.
Thats it! Thanks again to the people in the forum, and Mackie... get your shit together. You made a GREAT sounding series of small format mixers, now put in the rest of the pieces in the puzzle without forcing them into place with a hammer.
Matt
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- KVRAF
- 2009 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Cornwall, UK
To be fair to Mackie I think your being a little hard on their tech support, I mean, how many people know the size limitations of the WAV format?
This is pretty rare stuff. I mean really, 3 hours of solid recording, not an everyday requirement. This board has been going for 2 years and this is the first time it's cropped up, and the fault seems to lie in the WAV file specification at least in part. So I think your being a little harsh.
This is pretty rare stuff. I mean really, 3 hours of solid recording, not an everyday requirement. This board has been going for 2 years and this is the first time it's cropped up, and the fault seems to lie in the WAV file specification at least in part. So I think your being a little harsh.
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- KVRAF
- 2009 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Cornwall, UK
apparently he has to reboot each time he stops, for what reason I can not guess.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 35 posts since 19 Mar, 2005
Sometimes there are set breaks and sometimes there are not. I have recorded plenty of concerts that were 1 set over 2hrs long. It is certainly not out of the ordinary to record 1+hr stints when recording live music and 1 hr is the limit of this software when recording at 24/96. I would think anyone recording in a live concert environment would want to have a greater limitation than 1 hr. The onyx series was designed to record in the live concert environment.Todd24 wrote:I havent read the whole thread but....doesnt the band take a break in 3 hours? cant you just restart?
Could I do an ocassional stop and start? sure I could try that, but what if the band segues songs together for the back half of that hour? Then I just have to throw it all away or not record part of the music? The recordings I do are meant to be archival recordings of a live experience... no overdubs. There are many people working in the field doing what I do... it is not so strange. I'm finding now that many other DAW programs have an auto split function to conquer this... what happens if we want to record 24/192? We are now down to 1/2 hr recording sessions? Don't we all aspire to create DVD-A audio? DVD-A and SACD are formats that are similar in popularity to CD 15 years ago. Another couple of years and 44/16 will be another cassette.
As for being harsh on Mackie... this is something they should know about, and something they should have tested. A level 2 tech should not be stumped when he can't record a 7+GB wav file. I feel like an idiot for not understanding this before this all came up. I've got 30-40 hours of screwing around into this when there was an easy answer... it still wouldn't have been the answer I was looking for, but it would have saved me a lot of valuable time, and may have influenced my decisiion to buy this system, or atleast would have prepared me to buy usable software (for my application).
Maybe I'm coming off like a prick, but I don't feel Mackie took the time to learn about this product before they started selling it, or learning the basic limitations of 24bit audio for that matter. I have an excuse because I'm new to 24bit, but Mackie has been selling 24bit recording equiptment for years.
Matt