Just a note to say that Tracktion runs great on the Mac Mini.
I've been running 16 tracks of 16bit audio on my old powerbook G3 266 with a modest compliment of plugs for over a year. With T2 on the brink of release and my aging hardware no longer officially supported by Apple, it was time to upgrade. I bought the entry level machine, a 1.25 G4 combo drive which actually has a 5400rpm 40gb hard drive despite Apple's specs. Added an apple keyboard for $29 and 512ram from 18004memory.com for 49.50. I using an old crt 17" and generic IBM mouse. After selling my 256ram on ebay, I'm only out 550.00. As you might expect, some online specials are beginning to show up that include keyboard/mouse packages or extra memory or printer etc.
If anyone else is considering an upgrade from older mac hardware, adding a mac to their existing pc setup, developing plugs for multiple platforms or contemplating a switch, the Mini is a great option I can wholeheartedly endorse.
For an audio interface, I'm going with the m-audio firewire audiophile. Picked one up on ebay new in box for $135 including free shipping. The firewire version has better specs, can be daisy chained with additional units for multiple I/O's and comes with some plugs etc including a lite version of Live 4.
My next purchase will be a serious upgrade to my mic pre's. Considering my great experience with the FMR Really Nice Compressor, I'm leaning toward the FMR Really Nice Preamp for 475.00. I think an external mic pre is definately the way to go. Most of the combo usb audio interfaces pre's are hardly better than the VLZ pre's in my Mackie 1202 so why pay more for an interface with pre's I hope to bypass soon? Of course, the new Onyx pre's are getting some good reviews but I've yet to see a comparison with other entry level high quality pre's like the RNP or Grace 101. It's possible that the new 1202 with Onyx pre's is worth considering.
Mac Mini and Tracktion
-
- KVRist
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
-
- KVRist
- 37 posts since 27 Nov, 2003 from Nashville, TN
Hey James-
I was considering getting a mini instead of upgrading an old B&W G3. I know the mini has a higher bus speed, but I'm not enough of a techie to determine whether this is offset by the fact that minis come with a slower hard drive (I put a 7200 in the B&W G3). Or, do internal bus speeds matter much to us audio people?
Also, are you aware of any issues when using a firewire audio interface and an external firewire drive to record to? The mini only has the single firewire 400 port, so they'd have to be chained...
I was considering getting a mini instead of upgrading an old B&W G3. I know the mini has a higher bus speed, but I'm not enough of a techie to determine whether this is offset by the fact that minis come with a slower hard drive (I put a 7200 in the B&W G3). Or, do internal bus speeds matter much to us audio people?
Also, are you aware of any issues when using a firewire audio interface and an external firewire drive to record to? The mini only has the single firewire 400 port, so they'd have to be chained...
-
- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
I'm no mac expert, but hard-drive speed will greatly affect recording and playback of many tracks of audio (it'll have much less effect on plugs unless you run out of RAM).
The faster bus speed will provide better memory throughput which should generally help out vsts. I'd say couple the mac mini with a firewire external and you should be happy.
The faster bus speed will provide better memory throughput which should generally help out vsts. I'd say couple the mac mini with a firewire external and you should be happy.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
I'd prefer to direct you to xlr8.com for specific performance issues but I'll take a stab at your questions.
My opinion is that internal bus speed is a very big deal. So is memory speed, graphics etc. As a mac user, we're fond of saying that megahertz isn't everything, well part of understanding that is acknowledging the total system performance. For my money, the Mini is hands down, preferable to an upgraded G3 blue and white.
Daisy chaining firewire drives should not affect general audio performance either. I think that's the way to go - fast, quiet (fanless) external firewire enclosure (oxford chipset) with a large, 7200rpm drive (onboard 8mb cache). I've been pricing this combination and come up with a good 120gb or better for $100 or so.
My opinion is that internal bus speed is a very big deal. So is memory speed, graphics etc. As a mac user, we're fond of saying that megahertz isn't everything, well part of understanding that is acknowledging the total system performance. For my money, the Mini is hands down, preferable to an upgraded G3 blue and white.
Daisy chaining firewire drives should not affect general audio performance either. I think that's the way to go - fast, quiet (fanless) external firewire enclosure (oxford chipset) with a large, 7200rpm drive (onboard 8mb cache). I've been pricing this combination and come up with a good 120gb or better for $100 or so.
-
- KVRist
- 169 posts since 7 Nov, 2003 from Melbourne Australia
james, hi... You say it came with 5400rpm hdd standard?
BTW do you have any idea how the internal core audio performs in respect to latency playback with vsti's when comparing to an M-Audio soundcards ASIO drivers?
You say that you bought an external soundcard.., is this because it will also give better latency?
I had my heart set on the perfect spec iMac G5 1.8. but hearing about the numerous complaints being made about the whining noise emanating from this, my only portable cost effective choice looks like its gonna be the Mini.
Currentlty Im using Logic on PC with ASIO4ALL drivers and need to make the switch for an upgrade.., Will apreciate to know how many vsti's you can pull up on this Mini?
BTW do you have any idea how the internal core audio performs in respect to latency playback with vsti's when comparing to an M-Audio soundcards ASIO drivers?
You say that you bought an external soundcard.., is this because it will also give better latency?
I had my heart set on the perfect spec iMac G5 1.8. but hearing about the numerous complaints being made about the whining noise emanating from this, my only portable cost effective choice looks like its gonna be the Mini.
Currentlty Im using Logic on PC with ASIO4ALL drivers and need to make the switch for an upgrade.., Will apreciate to know how many vsti's you can pull up on this Mini?
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
I'm afraid I can't give you any good audio performance specs. I have seen some general application graphs done at xlr8yourmac.com.
The firewire audiophile seems to be the best bang for the buck if you can get one at the right price. It uses the coreaudio drivers and I seem to remember that latency is down to almost nothing - maybe a few milliseconds.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/F ... focus.html
Click on the computer music review from that page. They got the box down to 2 milliseconds at 44.1k before bumping it back to 5 milliseconds for better stability.
Noise is something most people don't think about but it's one big reason I continued using my powerbook for as long as I did. Portables might not be at the cutting edge of cpu speed but I'd rather have a quiet machine than a fast machine. Like you, I ruled out the iMac based on fan noise. The emac is a windstorm and most of the used towers in my price range are only practical for recording quiet/dynamic signals if they are isolated in a cabinet.
The Mini is ultra quiet with almost no sound at all in normal use. I've only heard the fan come on once and it's very reasonable - certainly not loud enough to blow an important take. There is, however, one big exception on the noise issue - the Mini's combo drive CD burner/DVD player is ridiculously loud. I hear this is common to slot loading drives so I'm not going to be too critical but you should know about it. Really a non issue for tracking as far as I'm concerned. At this price, I can more than live with it.
The firewire audiophile seems to be the best bang for the buck if you can get one at the right price. It uses the coreaudio drivers and I seem to remember that latency is down to almost nothing - maybe a few milliseconds.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/F ... focus.html
Click on the computer music review from that page. They got the box down to 2 milliseconds at 44.1k before bumping it back to 5 milliseconds for better stability.
Noise is something most people don't think about but it's one big reason I continued using my powerbook for as long as I did. Portables might not be at the cutting edge of cpu speed but I'd rather have a quiet machine than a fast machine. Like you, I ruled out the iMac based on fan noise. The emac is a windstorm and most of the used towers in my price range are only practical for recording quiet/dynamic signals if they are isolated in a cabinet.
The Mini is ultra quiet with almost no sound at all in normal use. I've only heard the fan come on once and it's very reasonable - certainly not loud enough to blow an important take. There is, however, one big exception on the noise issue - the Mini's combo drive CD burner/DVD player is ridiculously loud. I hear this is common to slot loading drives so I'm not going to be too critical but you should know about it. Really a non issue for tracking as far as I'm concerned. At this price, I can more than live with it.
-
- KVRist
- 73 posts since 29 Aug, 2003 from australia
Hey James,
good to hear you made the leap to a G4 and are digging it after so many years of getting along with the G3. No doubt you'll have fun.
I realise that this is somewhat antithetical to the mac experience, but I am recently returned from another sojourn in the jungles (of the psyche) of Colombian and Brasilian shamanism, and stopped in LA on my way home to meet with an old friend from Aus who now resides there. He runs a production house and, given that he picked me up in a Porsche Boxer at the airport, I imagine it serves his artistic and material needs quite well. He is something of a Mac evangelist, attending all the Expo's or Keynote addresses or whatever it is that Mac geeks attend, and he said he had recently purchased a Mini for an auxillary machine in his Avid based studio. He said that it had been overclocked and performed as fast as a single 1.8ghx G5.
All for the princely sum of $700. Not too bad.
Six
ps the antithetical bit was the overclocking by the way, but worth exploring for those who need a little grunt for "outsourcing" vst's or other effects (Logic audio nodes for example)
good to hear you made the leap to a G4 and are digging it after so many years of getting along with the G3. No doubt you'll have fun.
I realise that this is somewhat antithetical to the mac experience, but I am recently returned from another sojourn in the jungles (of the psyche) of Colombian and Brasilian shamanism, and stopped in LA on my way home to meet with an old friend from Aus who now resides there. He runs a production house and, given that he picked me up in a Porsche Boxer at the airport, I imagine it serves his artistic and material needs quite well. He is something of a Mac evangelist, attending all the Expo's or Keynote addresses or whatever it is that Mac geeks attend, and he said he had recently purchased a Mini for an auxillary machine in his Avid based studio. He said that it had been overclocked and performed as fast as a single 1.8ghx G5.
All for the princely sum of $700. Not too bad.
Six
ps the antithetical bit was the overclocking by the way, but worth exploring for those who need a little grunt for "outsourcing" vst's or other effects (Logic audio nodes for example)
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
I do occassionally get a very quiet ticking sound from the hard drive reading/writing data. Not bad and easily masked by the pick "click" on a moderately loud acoustic guitar. With the Mini in a cardoid mic's blind spot, it's perfectly practical to record right at my desk with the Mini only a few feet away.
As an afterthought, it's size also makes Mini ideal to hide in a ventilated sound-proof box. Not a bad idea if you're concerned about the combo drive.
As an afterthought, it's size also makes Mini ideal to hide in a ventilated sound-proof box. Not a bad idea if you're concerned about the combo drive.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
Hi Six,
This posting will read out of order but the short answer is yes.
www.modmini.com
Lot's of people are overclocking the mini and it's quite a performer if you have the skills and nerve to do so.
For myself, I had no trouble popping it open to install memory but that's where I'll draw the line. The overall system feels very snappy with 512 of ram - particularly compared to what I've been using!
A hard drive upgrade doesn't make alot of sense to me. The 1.25 40gb has been confirmed by model number to be a 5400rpm OEM drive by the manufacturer. That's fine for internal. Much easier and a better value to go with an external firewire 7200rpm for reading/writing audio - even on the Mini's firewire 400 bus.
Glad to hear you're doing well and travelling. My family and I would love to make it down there some time as well. On a related note, my youngest dauther and I got to see and meet Neil and TIm Finn twice this month - in Nashville and Louisville. We've lived on Finn St. for 9 years. Of course, we had them sign our street sign.
This posting will read out of order but the short answer is yes.
www.modmini.com
Lot's of people are overclocking the mini and it's quite a performer if you have the skills and nerve to do so.
For myself, I had no trouble popping it open to install memory but that's where I'll draw the line. The overall system feels very snappy with 512 of ram - particularly compared to what I've been using!
A hard drive upgrade doesn't make alot of sense to me. The 1.25 40gb has been confirmed by model number to be a 5400rpm OEM drive by the manufacturer. That's fine for internal. Much easier and a better value to go with an external firewire 7200rpm for reading/writing audio - even on the Mini's firewire 400 bus.
Glad to hear you're doing well and travelling. My family and I would love to make it down there some time as well. On a related note, my youngest dauther and I got to see and meet Neil and TIm Finn twice this month - in Nashville and Louisville. We've lived on Finn St. for 9 years. Of course, we had them sign our street sign.
-
- KVRist
- 73 posts since 29 Aug, 2003 from australia
Did you hear of Hester's death?
Yeah the travel is arduous actually, I'm sure you can imagine.
I agree insofar as overclocking is concerned, I'm not one to take a screwdriver to the innards of my machines, I was just impressed with the specs.
In any case, enjoy it and when you make it down here, give me a shout (as we say in the vernacular!)
Six
Yeah the travel is arduous actually, I'm sure you can imagine.
I agree insofar as overclocking is concerned, I'm not one to take a screwdriver to the innards of my machines, I was just impressed with the specs.
In any case, enjoy it and when you make it down here, give me a shout (as we say in the vernacular!)
Six
-
- KVRist
- 169 posts since 7 Nov, 2003 from Melbourne Australia
Thanks James,
Is it possible to only use Mac core audio by itself? As I wont be needing external audio injection, just wondering if the core audio drivers work as good as any other ASIO driver?
mmm, overclocking possible! upgrade hdd and ram for even bigger power in a little box!... mmm, looks like Im metamorphisizing into a macgeek.
Is it possible to only use Mac core audio by itself? As I wont be needing external audio injection, just wondering if the core audio drivers work as good as any other ASIO driver?
mmm, overclocking possible! upgrade hdd and ram for even bigger power in a little box!... mmm, looks like Im metamorphisizing into a macgeek.
-
- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Regarding externals, I've heard you'll get much better performance with an internal since the actual FW bus speed isn't as great in real life. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to swap out a larger, 7200 drive with lots of cache for the internal.
I've been thinking about getting a mini, but something deep inside says don't settle for anything less than a dual G5, If only I wasn't so poor.
I've been thinking about getting a mini, but something deep inside says don't settle for anything less than a dual G5, If only I wasn't so poor.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
-
- KVRer
- 24 posts since 4 Mar, 2005
Hi guys, The only thing I have negative to say about the mini is that, unlike the latest powerbooks or other desktops, it MAXES out at 1gb of Ram. If you are using a lot of VSTis, that is kind of a joy-kill. The 5200 rpm drive would definitely be the first thing to get replaced if I were to get one. I love the concept though - and it does pack a puch for the money you spend, but to be a serious audio app machine, you need to augment and enhance it. BTW - isn't overclocking bad for a non-fanned processor? Won't that run it too hot and therefore, break down sooner?
Jerry
Jerry
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
Jerry,
Those are fair points about memory but I'm not hitting the ceiling on ram usage for what I do with 512 so there's room to upgrade to a gig of ram later. Everyone's needs are different.
Apple won't ever officially support more than a gig. They never speculate on future ram technologies but it's common for most macs to enjoy a much higher than spec'd ram ceiling when larger chips ship later.
I think it's imortant to judge the Mini for what it is. You'll either love it or not. At this price, it's a great value and has significant audio advantages (it's really quiet) over higher end systems. Performance is going to be comparable to a new G4 ibook but as we've mentioned, the Mini is much easier to open up & customize. Another thing I like is it's modular nature. I can use a cheap but hi resolution (compared to ibooks) 17" CRT monitor now and upgrade to an LCD later for about $250.
I don't recommend overclocking but there are some very good resources online for those interested. Heat and stability are issues that overclockers are very aware of.
Six,
I hadn't heard about Paul Hester's death. I read some articles last night. Very sad.
We saw crowded house on the Woodface tour in Nashville. Hester was classic.
What a waste. He must have been very sick.
My daughters are the same age.
Mr. Sleep,
Core Audio replaces ASIO in OSX so the answer is yes. Latency depends on the audio interface and drivers. As i mentioned, the firewire audiophile is cheap on ebay and can sustain multiple tracks at 24/48 with only 5 milliseconds of latency.
You will need some kind of audio interface as the Mini doesn't have an audio input jack at all. If you're not that concerned with audio input but need something basic, get the imic from griffin for $35. I got one as a stepping stone to give myself time to compare better audio interfaces and it's alright if you only do occassional 16 bit audio to compliment midi/samplers/vsti's. It's also a good improvement over the Mini's audio output hardware although limited to monitoring at 16bit/44.1.
Those are fair points about memory but I'm not hitting the ceiling on ram usage for what I do with 512 so there's room to upgrade to a gig of ram later. Everyone's needs are different.
Apple won't ever officially support more than a gig. They never speculate on future ram technologies but it's common for most macs to enjoy a much higher than spec'd ram ceiling when larger chips ship later.
I think it's imortant to judge the Mini for what it is. You'll either love it or not. At this price, it's a great value and has significant audio advantages (it's really quiet) over higher end systems. Performance is going to be comparable to a new G4 ibook but as we've mentioned, the Mini is much easier to open up & customize. Another thing I like is it's modular nature. I can use a cheap but hi resolution (compared to ibooks) 17" CRT monitor now and upgrade to an LCD later for about $250.
I don't recommend overclocking but there are some very good resources online for those interested. Heat and stability are issues that overclockers are very aware of.
Six,
I hadn't heard about Paul Hester's death. I read some articles last night. Very sad.
We saw crowded house on the Woodface tour in Nashville. Hester was classic.
What a waste. He must have been very sick.
My daughters are the same age.
Mr. Sleep,
Core Audio replaces ASIO in OSX so the answer is yes. Latency depends on the audio interface and drivers. As i mentioned, the firewire audiophile is cheap on ebay and can sustain multiple tracks at 24/48 with only 5 milliseconds of latency.
You will need some kind of audio interface as the Mini doesn't have an audio input jack at all. If you're not that concerned with audio input but need something basic, get the imic from griffin for $35. I got one as a stepping stone to give myself time to compare better audio interfaces and it's alright if you only do occassional 16 bit audio to compliment midi/samplers/vsti's. It's also a good improvement over the Mini's audio output hardware although limited to monitoring at 16bit/44.1.