T2 doesn't sound as good as Nuendo?

[Tracktion-Drey]

[/quote]32/64-bit mixing has nothing to do with tracking, but summing. 64-bit summing should translate to clearer mixes when summing many tracks.[/quote]

What then are you summing? Non-tracks?

When summing multiple tracks it helps to have the additional headroom per track so that you are not always grabbing at the volume fader for each track. Mixing in the digital realm is often a confusing topic. People don't realize that their mixes sound like mush because they are summing a bunch of tracks which were recorded at 0dBfs, sent to plug-ins which are then clipping at the input, with the volume being adjusted AFTER the damage is done, then sent on to the mix bus. A 64-bit mix bus is not going to help you here.

What semiquaver is saying is correct. When tracking, keep the peaks between -20dBfs and -12dBfs (depending on your hardware, soundcard, etc.) and you won't be concerned about how good the summing sounds. It will already sound phenomenal! 32-bit or 64-bit doesn't matter in this case.

[aldi]

what if, if you move the microphon 1 cm away from the amp, what if your mom steps in during a perfect solo and what if most of your favorite songs not even match a perfect sound, what if nobody cares if your song sounds great but is horrible boring what if some of the best songs ever were recorded on a four track tape with 60 db signal to noise. i'll never understand these discussions

[Tracktion-Drey]

Well, all of these what if's are a part of recording music. We must always take care to set levels correctly, whether digital, analog, whatever the medium.

[IIRs]

4. destructively reversed each-other file in Tracktion using it's primitive editing capabilities

Why would you expect a reversed sine wave sample to cancel itself? You need to invert the polarity surely..?

[voidar]

32/64-bit mixing has nothing to do with tracking, but summing. 64-bit summing should translate to clearer mixes when summing many tracks.[/quote]

What then are you summing? Non-tracks?

When summing multiple tracks it helps to have the additional headroom per track so that you are not always grabbing at the volume fader for each track. Mixing in the digital realm is often a confusing topic. People don't realize that their mixes sound like mush because they are summing a bunch of tracks which were recorded at 0dBfs, sent to plug-ins which are then clipping at the input, with the volume being adjusted AFTER the damage is done, then sent on to the mix bus. A 64-bit mix bus is not going to help you here.

What semiquaver is saying is correct. When tracking, keep the peaks between -20dBfs and -12dBfs (depending on your hardware, soundcard, etc.) and you won't be concerned about how good the summing sounds. It will already sound phenomenal! 32-bit or 64-bit doesn't matter in this case.[/quote]

By tracking I refer to the act of recording the audio.

When recording to a digital medium I do not see the problem with capturing the hottest signal possible as long as you are below a safe cliping margin (don't forget your transients). Only this way ca you protect your audio from really bad distortions from over-processing. Track resolution helps to keep the integrity of the audio.

And of course, when adding processors you will need to trim the input and the output respectively, but I don't think recording audio at a lower level is the way to do it.

It is however adviced to set your track levels quite some dBs below 0 when summing, and when doing this it is important that your individual audio tracks start out having their best resolution.

Higher mix-bus resoltion will results in easier mixing of large projects. You still have to know what you are doing, but it should be easier to give all the individual elements their own space in the mix.

[voidar]

4. destructively reversed each-other file in Tracktion using it's primitive editing capabilities

Why would you expect a reversed sine wave sample to cancel itself? You need to invert the polarity surely..?

I know, but I wonder whether the "reverse" action in Tracktion is actually an "invert" or not. It seemed to make no difference with a phase-inv. plug.

[voidar]

Hi Voldar - could you post you edit? I just tried loading an arbitrary audio clip in T - shift dragging it to the next track and used Ts eq flat with the phase invert button and presto it nulled perfectly so *something* must have gone wrong in your edit!

What Tracktion-Drey was saying was that samples that peak out at lower levels can be summed more succesfully in a 32 bit buss which may well be right (I need to think about it!)

a detail to remember is that, if I'm not mistaken the VST standard maxes out at 32 bits....

I hope you are right regarding the playback integrity of Tracktion. My test was quick and probably messy. I will try to redo it some time. At this moment I am really without a DAW so I won't be able to supply you with my file.

Regarding Tracktion-Drey..
Surely the same results could be made by proper level-matching while summing? I know of some people who claim unity-gain-or-no-game, but these are mostly analog purists.

[chriss]

My reel to reel 4 track has better summing than any software!!



j/k

[Tracktion-Drey]

voidar,

This has nothing to do with being an analog purist. I'm just saying that you don't have to track as close to 0dBfs as possible in order to get maximum "resolution" when recording in 24-bit. I add gain (or decrease) where gain is needed, but not so as to get into the red.
This is how the professionals are recording digital.

Your point about matching levels while summing is valid. But in essence, you are taking away the "resolution" that you gained by decreasing the level at the faders after the fact. I on the other hand don't worry so much about hitting the converters hard, and instead focus on the music, knowing that I've captured the audio with just as much detail as anyone who is hitting the converters hard. This misconception about digital audio is still very prevalent in the recording industry.

[voidar]

voidar,

This has nothing to do with being an analog purist. I'm just saying that you don't have to track as close to 0dBfs as possible in order to get maximum "resolution" when recording in 24-bit. I add gain (or decrease) where gain is needed, but not so as to get into the red.
This is how the professionals are recording digital.

Your point about matching levels while summing is valid. But in essence, you are taking away the "resolution" that you gained by decreasing the level at the faders after the fact. I on the other hand don't worry so much about hitting the converters hard, and instead focus on the music, knowing that I've captured the audio with just as much detail as anyone who is hitting the converters hard. This misconception about digital audio is still very prevalent in the recording industry.

In no way did I want to imply anything about your character.

Yes, the benefit of 24-bit recording is that you can spare some dBs on the meter and still remain a high-quality recording. And by all means, you should use your ears and your gut more than your eyes when it comes to audio .
I am just saying that you should record as hot as you can and worry about proper level-matching when mixing (there is nothing wrong with filling most of those bits with usefull information). And by all means, when I say hot I ofcourse mean stay away from the red, red is bad.

To sum this up.. You benefit more from a 24-bit file at what-ever level when summing to a 64-bit bus than with a 32-bit bus. Especially when multiple tracks are to be summed. There is simply room for less mistakes. The volume-fader will have more steps.

[semiquaver]

a 24 bit file without eq or fader changes will be exactly the same after going through a 32 bit bus as it would after a 64 bit buss likewise for a track going through any vst plug then no level change... where I would expect to see some difference will be with tracks at very different levels... Its a teeny detail but avoiding gain changes might be more significant than the bit depth of yr buss...

that said I'll use 64 bits at the end....

[koolkeys]

I'd love to participate in this, but I'm WAYYYY too tired. But it has been good fun trying to think of a response after a long, long day! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[voidar]

a 24 bit file without eq or fader changes will be exactly the same after going through a 32 bit bus as it would after a 64 bit buss likewise for a track going through any vst plug then no level change... where I would expect to see some difference will be with tracks at very different levels... Its a teeny detail but avoiding gain changes might be more significant than the bit depth of yr buss...

that said I'll use 64 bits at the end....

If you are to avoid gain-changes then you won't get very far with mixing a project. You have to think real-world cenarios here.
But this is fine if you will bus out to outboard gear which means you will not be using the Tracktion mixer at all.

[Barbarossa]

T2 uses 64-bits not 32, so it sounds twice as good as Nuendo.

One bit more means doubled headroom.
64bit mean, the internal resolution is 4.294.967.296-times finer than with 32bit.

But it matters, if it is 64bit float or only 64bit fixed, but i hope T2 uses a 64bit float format, becasuse 64bit fixed would be worse than 32bit float.

Anyway, no one should be fooled by bought engineers for marketing agendas.
The most important thing is not the sequencer engine, nor the plugins, but by far the knowledge and experience of the engineer.

It is ridicuously, if amateurs are thinking about the sequencer's resolution, why they are still way to unexperienced, to make decent, good sounding mixes.

Everyone could do himself a favour and forget all the marketing hypes about summing and bitdepth until you really know how to mix and to EQ, which always will produce very good sounding results. If you've got that far, then maybe it's time to think further.
But this takes at least one decade of experience and good sounding mixes are not a matter of 32 or 64 bit.

If you want to improve your mixing skills, don't blame the technical equipment, try to find the mistakes you make.

[headquest]

I'm sure you're correct there Barbarossa. I think the main reason this is being discussed, though, is because Mackie have made the 64-bit summing a headline feature.

Also of course this is all quite different from the 64-bit computing that Logic/Cubase/Sonar 64-bit are currently making a great play with. But the advances that 64-bit computing will bring are very exciting for musicians. It's just that "64-bit" is rapidly becoming jargon used by marketeers to pull in sales, even if many peeps are simply confused.