Okee.. the beta squad has been doing some testing on the first note drop issue and there are some interesting discoveries... but for those of you that are experiencing it, can you provide the following...
[1] a list of VSTs/Rewire Hosts in which you experiencing it
[2] does it only drop the first note when starting from the top (but never again upon susequent loops)? or does it drop the note when looping back around as well?
I know Reason was a good rewire example. Question.. is the problem using midi in Tracktion and trigger reason synths on the first note? Or is is playback from midi inside reason skips the first note?
more info will be posted on the findings... but we'd like to do some experiments with other software ppl are clearly having issues with.
Q: First Note Drop (download this and test)
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
Just tested the reason demo, and it doesn't drop the first note in either situation... (I could have sworn I heard someone complaining about it). In any case... ANYONE want to post? I've watched this one slip down... All the complaints in the world before, and now everyone is quiet! WTF? Trying to come up with a solution folks... HELLO! 
ModuLR / Radio
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- KVRist
- 171 posts since 11 Aug, 2004 from Toronto, Canada
I'll just throw this out:
I've experienced the Drop on the usual suspects like Sonik Synth 2 & SampleTank 2, and also any proprietary sample based VSTi using the Kontakt/Kompakt engine. What I have noticed in particular is that the Drop usually won't occur if the VSTi is a single instance, but once you rack-wrap it and span it across tracks with different MIDI for each track, the Drop reveals itself. In this case, the note won't drop when cued from the start of a loop region, but will instead be dropped for each pass as the region is looped
So my guess is that the Drop is somehow tied to the latency introduced when wrapping/spanning VSTi's.
_mt
I've experienced the Drop on the usual suspects like Sonik Synth 2 & SampleTank 2, and also any proprietary sample based VSTi using the Kontakt/Kompakt engine. What I have noticed in particular is that the Drop usually won't occur if the VSTi is a single instance, but once you rack-wrap it and span it across tracks with different MIDI for each track, the Drop reveals itself. In this case, the note won't drop when cued from the start of a loop region, but will instead be dropped for each pass as the region is looped
So my guess is that the Drop is somehow tied to the latency introduced when wrapping/spanning VSTi's.
_mt
Last edited by tibenmik on Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3617 posts since 26 Sep, 2003 from Bradford - The Armpit of Britain
It hasn't dropped for me using reason - but then I have always started tracks in any app at around bar 5 anyway. I haven't rendered anything though, if that is part of the problem.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
thanks tibenmik! 
Thus far, the solution is looking much simpler than that... (might even be fixable with a workaround plugin for the time being). I don't think ppl realize how close this is feeling to finding the root problem... we've got something now that makes kontakt, iblit, polyiblit not drop the note (and it's so simple it's stupid). C'mon folks... more VSTs plz!
Thus far, the solution is looking much simpler than that... (might even be fixable with a workaround plugin for the time being). I don't think ppl realize how close this is feeling to finding the root problem... we've got something now that makes kontakt, iblit, polyiblit not drop the note (and it's so simple it's stupid). C'mon folks... more VSTs plz! ModuLR / Radio
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Yeah.. if you happen to be as clever as ModuLR!ModuLR wrote:(and it's so simple it's stupid)
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
Remarkable, isn't it.ModuLR wrote:All the complaints in the world before, and now everyone is quiet! WTF? Trying to come up with a solution folks... HELLO!
FWIW, it's working here.
It seems there are some slightly silly plugin writers out there.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRian
- 1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
You can almost guarantee a note-drop on the first note if you try and record on a track in LOOP mode.
Put a C(2) Major chord or something (any VSTi, doesn't matter) on a track.
Now try and record in loop mode on another track. It never plays the first notes at the start of loops.
However, move the notes forward a little bit and they'll play fine.
Put a C(2) Major chord or something (any VSTi, doesn't matter) on a track.
Now try and record in loop mode on another track. It never plays the first notes at the start of loops.
However, move the notes forward a little bit and they'll play fine.
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- KVRist
- 171 posts since 11 Aug, 2004 from Toronto, Canada
Here's my theory:
To extrapolate on my first post, it makes sense when you think about how Tracktion compensates delay across an edit - i.e., when you span a rack-wrapped VSTi, it results in a delay in the output of the spanned tracks of that VSTi, so Tracktion will bump any audio clips in the project ahead by that amount. But what about MIDI clips - the ones that trigger the spanned VSTi in the first place? I think this is the root of the problem.
Even though you might set up a loop region, when a number of tracks have delay on them and Tracktion needs to bump other tracks ahead to keep sync, the program is reading ahead a certain amount in order to do that calculation. So the loop region isn't exactly accurate in the time-specific sense, as Tracktion has been reading ahead and adjusting tracks and syncing this playback with the cursor in the loop region so that you don't get confused.
As Tracktion at present won't offset MIDI clips that might feed into a spanned VSTi, they get 'left behind' in the read-ahead calculations, resulting in notes at the beginning of a loop region being 'dropped', only because in reality those notes are now 'earlier than they appear' in the edit screen...if that makes sense...
That's my theory, anyway...
_mt
To extrapolate on my first post, it makes sense when you think about how Tracktion compensates delay across an edit - i.e., when you span a rack-wrapped VSTi, it results in a delay in the output of the spanned tracks of that VSTi, so Tracktion will bump any audio clips in the project ahead by that amount. But what about MIDI clips - the ones that trigger the spanned VSTi in the first place? I think this is the root of the problem.
Even though you might set up a loop region, when a number of tracks have delay on them and Tracktion needs to bump other tracks ahead to keep sync, the program is reading ahead a certain amount in order to do that calculation. So the loop region isn't exactly accurate in the time-specific sense, as Tracktion has been reading ahead and adjusting tracks and syncing this playback with the cursor in the loop region so that you don't get confused.
As Tracktion at present won't offset MIDI clips that might feed into a spanned VSTi, they get 'left behind' in the read-ahead calculations, resulting in notes at the beginning of a loop region being 'dropped', only because in reality those notes are now 'earlier than they appear' in the edit screen...if that makes sense...
That's my theory, anyway...
_mt
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Any VST I have tried does it. All freebies, e.g. Crystal, Cheese Machine, Synth 1, etcModuLR wrote: [1] a list of VSTs/Rewire Hosts in which you experiencing it
When looping back as well.[2] does it only drop the first note when starting from the top (but never again upon susequent loops)? or does it drop the note when looping back around as well?
Also, sometimes even when the first note is NOT on the first beat of the clip.
I suspect this is a seperate bug, mod.I know Reason was a good rewire example. Question.. is the problem using midi in Tracktion and trigger reason synths on the first note? Or is is playback from midi inside reason skips the first note?
I tend to sequencer within Reason - e.g. drum patterns using the ReDrum pattern sequencer, etc.
In worst cases I lose the first beat and a half via ReWire.
Cheers.
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- KVRer
- 13 posts since 29 Jul, 2004
Using FLStudio V5.03
Rewire:
Always drops the first note. I made a simple 4 bar snare hit on the quarters. It would miss the first then play three then play the next four in the next bar.
VST:
I've never been able to get FL to work very well as a vsti. It drops the whole first bar in T2 no matter what the offset is set ot in the FL VSTi. This has never been a big deal. I don't use the built in countdown and just make a 3 bar count in in FL. The first bar uses a snare hit on the last quarter(or what ever my time sig is) then second uses a hi-hat and the third uses a clap. That way i know where I am on the count-in. It usually gets the last two no problem.
I just figured I'd do the same thing if using rewire and probably drop it to two bar count-in since it was only dropping the first note.
Dennis
BTW: I'm a new Traction user and can't wait for T2. The ability to sync MTC/MMC to my hardware is glorius. Now I can stop using the sequencer in my Triton. I can't wait !
Rewire:
Always drops the first note. I made a simple 4 bar snare hit on the quarters. It would miss the first then play three then play the next four in the next bar.
VST:
I've never been able to get FL to work very well as a vsti. It drops the whole first bar in T2 no matter what the offset is set ot in the FL VSTi. This has never been a big deal. I don't use the built in countdown and just make a 3 bar count in in FL. The first bar uses a snare hit on the last quarter(or what ever my time sig is) then second uses a hi-hat and the third uses a clap. That way i know where I am on the count-in. It usually gets the last two no problem.
I just figured I'd do the same thing if using rewire and probably drop it to two bar count-in since it was only dropping the first note.
Dennis
BTW: I'm a new Traction user and can't wait for T2. The ability to sync MTC/MMC to my hardware is glorius. Now I can stop using the sequencer in my Triton. I can't wait !
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
okee doke folks... we've been in the bug lab, and there are definately two seperate issues... The VSTi's dropping are one, and the rewire thing is something else me thinks.
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[1] VST stuff - For the VST based issues (like kontakt, iblit, etc), try giving this little plug a download... DRoP_FiX
Place it before whatever plugin is dropping the first note... then please be so kind as to post back in this thread if it resolves your problem with VSTs dropping
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[2] Rewire - I think the issue is sync related... so it would have to be resolved by the Jules man. One workaround for redrum in Reason, is placing the midi inside the Tracktion instead of using ReDrums stepsequencer. It will then play the first note. This might work for FL as well, but didn't get a chance to dig real deep. We'll keep at it.
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In any case, I think we're all kinda eagar to hear if this helps with issue #1 tho! so post damnit!
With enough confirmations, it will be wisked off to jules mailbox...
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[1] VST stuff - For the VST based issues (like kontakt, iblit, etc), try giving this little plug a download... DRoP_FiX
Place it before whatever plugin is dropping the first note... then please be so kind as to post back in this thread if it resolves your problem with VSTs dropping
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[2] Rewire - I think the issue is sync related... so it would have to be resolved by the Jules man. One workaround for redrum in Reason, is placing the midi inside the Tracktion instead of using ReDrums stepsequencer. It will then play the first note. This might work for FL as well, but didn't get a chance to dig real deep. We'll keep at it.
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In any case, I think we're all kinda eagar to hear if this helps with issue #1 tho! so post damnit!
With enough confirmations, it will be wisked off to jules mailbox... ModuLR / Radio
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- KVRAF
- 2874 posts since 22 Oct, 2002 from "somewhere between digital and analog"
OSX version here... but I have found many interesting facts in my 2 year search for the "holy grail"... er, dropped note fix! For instance, it does not happen if the initial midi clip is 2 bars or longer. Only if it's 1 bar. Also, if the first "offending" note is moved, then placed back to beat one, that seems to make it work properly?? I had another revelation back awhile ago... but now I can't remember what it was... something about starting the clip at bar 2, then moving it to bar 1 which made it work pproperly for some reason?
Speaking of Reason, it does not drop notes, unless the note is between the bar marker... Which unfortunately Reason's snap has a habit of doing... Really more of an issue if you group your notes... But I have been manually adjusting notes in Reason's editor for years
Speaking of Reason, it does not drop notes, unless the note is between the bar marker... Which unfortunately Reason's snap has a habit of doing... Really more of an issue if you group your notes... But I have been manually adjusting notes in Reason's editor for years
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Sorry mod - I've been out with my wife most of this afternoon/evening. I will try this and get back to you. Hope my previous post(s) helped sort out between the two bugs here. Encouraging to know one at least is nearly fixed. 
fwiw - I've NEVER had a dropped note using Reason in rewire client IF I do the sequencing in Tracktion. But I love sequencing ReDrum using it's own pattern sequencer... and then editing in the specific drum lanes. (Add Drum Lanes to the feature request list please!). This works OK if I leave a bar (or two, to fit more nicely with Reason's sequencer presentation) as someone else posted above.
Cheers, and I will get back to you as soon as I can
(probably early tomorrow morning)
fwiw - I've NEVER had a dropped note using Reason in rewire client IF I do the sequencing in Tracktion. But I love sequencing ReDrum using it's own pattern sequencer... and then editing in the specific drum lanes. (Add Drum Lanes to the feature request list please!). This works OK if I leave a bar (or two, to fit more nicely with Reason's sequencer presentation) as someone else posted above.
Cheers, and I will get back to you as soon as I can
(probably early tomorrow morning)-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
thanks headquest!
This place drives me cos if I had posted how much "I hated the first note drop bug," everyone and their mother would have thrown in their $.02 by now and we'd be sitting on page 9. 
So either people only like discussing bad things, or people are getting lots of friday sex. it's gotta be one or the other...
This place drives me
cos if I had posted how much "I hated the first note drop bug," everyone and their mother would have thrown in their $.02 by now and we'd be sitting on page 9. So either people only like discussing bad things, or people are getting lots of friday sex. it's gotta be one or the other...
ModuLR / Radio