Whuddup with the FRs?

[Lunch Money]

I don't know that Jules is petitioning FRs right now, though as a community there's certainly nothing stopping us from sharing what we think would make a great piece of software, and even hoping that Jules will see those requests and agree that they'd be good functions.

But there seems to be an implied tone of ownership with some people, as if by making a feature request, it's something that "naturally" should be in the program and that it's something that "should" be addressed in order to make Tracktion "complete". Or in other words, just because a feature request has been made, it'd be folly to assume that it's something that can, should, or will ever be implemented.

I'm in those threads, too. Folder tracks, I'll take some of that, please! More options for muting and soloing? OK, pass that over here. So I'm definitely with you guys on the frontlines and I enjoy discussing these things from both sides-- the ones I share and would like to see implemented, AND the ones I think are a bit silly and I disagree with. I'll talk about'em all.

BUT, I just hope people realize that sharing these ideas with each other is simply a function of the community, and shouldn't be seen as implying any sort of stake in the software.

Last time, it was, "But *I've* been making this request since a year ago!" "We all asked for *this*, so why isn't it implemented yet???" and such statements.

Share, sure... but don't expect that anybody's required to do anything about it.

Greg

[braj]

Please take this in the most friendly way possible.: shut up! Posts like yours are more annoying than all the feature request threads combined IMO. While you may think the feature requests are assuming ownership (which in most cases likely are) this thread is assuming authority which I hope you realize you don't really possess.

[haydxn]

yes of course. who's to say what the state of play is with jules and his ideas monkeys he may already have goals and not be too worried about the bits people are asking for as his direction is usually a sound and inventive one.

i made the FR post with a formalised system and source of information for several reasons:

1) about ten threads pop up discussing a single subject that people want to see in tracktion. the thread duplication led to ideas being thrown around all over the place and potentially getting lost; having individual FR threads (hopefully) helps to contain ideas and allow them to evolve in an optimal and trackable way.

2) having a jumble of feature requests in a (sometimes unrelated) post (as has happened frequently of late, both before and after demo release) has often brought out some nasty arguments that could have been avoided had a more structured approach been adopted



i would like to stress that the system i set up was not meant to suggest that these ideas were officially in line for mackie's or jules' personal checklist of "things to do". the purpose of the list is to give everyone somewhere to look when they get feelings of "grrrrr i wish somesuch feature..."; without it, commonly requested features are dragged up, causing cries of "stfu everyone knows about that" followed by "are you crazy? we don't need that! do this.." and then big fights.

of course, it does have the benefit of being a single useful place that jules/mackie reps can check for the current state of affairs in the WANTED department should they ever feel like having a nose about. any good ideas that pop up will therefore have a surefire way of getting to them without getting lost, and without requiring badgering or war!


the overall feeling behind it is that people can check to see if an idea they have has already been discussed, and then even jump straight to the discussion thread to read more or contribute.

but again i stress this is not an 'official statement' of any kind, or a declaration of the future. this is merely a useful guide for us all, and i hope that in creating and maintaining it i can bring a sense of structure to the ideas-forming process, and turn it away from the violent and unruly bash-ground it's tended towards of late.

[Lunch Money]

[edit: directed at Braj] What a hypocrite.

Authority....

Nope, can't see where I assumed I had any.



Also, grab a sense of tact while you're at it. I never made any sort of comments that were aimed at any particular individuals, and you were welcome to just ignore this thread if it bothered you that much. If you agree that some people are assuming ownership with their feature requests, then you agree with what I said and are therefore just looking to argue.

On the other hand, you DID address an individual, in this case, me. There's no 'friendly' way to take being told to shut up, so it's pretty silly to even preface that statement. So... responding to somebody's opinion with a 'shut up' is pretty dissimilar in intention to anything I may have written.

Or in other words, that was an a-hole response, Braj.

Greg

[Lunch Money]

haydxn: there's a proper response. I didn't realize that somebody had set up a 'formal' system, and I agree that such a system sure beats a million redundant threads flying around.

Cheers.

[haydxn]

well, i call it a formal system because i put some little instructions on how to go about making FRs.. and the fact that the sticky thread is SSOOoooo poserly, it seemed like an appropriate word to use

people seem to be digging the idea, and i feel that it's helping somewhat. i hope it's a good thing anyway.

[braj]

Sorry LM, don't shut up then It wasn't meant to be taken literally. I was just joking.

I think the operative word here is 'requests' and I see no reason anyone should want to complain that people are doing that.

[cbit]

I think the FR sticky is a very good idea.

But, with respect, i wonder about whether it's a 'haydxn approved' list or what? or: what are the criteria for getting a FR listed in there?

[haydxn]

i was wondering about that myself. my main viewpoint is that an idea should be developed and discussed.

if the discussion goes on for several pages and it is heavily contested as to whether or not it should be included (such as the notation for example) then it is likely that it will not get onto the list.

if someone puts forward an idea and it gets really good feedback, then it'll go up on the list.

if an idea comes up and is great, but not entirely developed, then it will not go up on the list immediately. i would really like to have the FRs in the list to be developed, refined and most importantly realistic suggestions. as much as it is a guide for us all, i'd like to think that it's a helpful thing for jules to have useable ideas to consider. it's all very well saying "i would like Tracktion to have an automatic flengle pin", but if it can be developed by enthusiastic users into "a semi flengle, which can be called each time a clip is dragged to the barg-thinp, and which changes into fully automatic flengle-pin when you hold the mouse over the cursor during loop mode" then it would be more useful for everyone.

one thing that i've not really considered yet is how to manage the other FR threads.. i.e. the ones that are heavily contested or not really practical. i don't feel that it's a great idea to put them in as actual feature requests if they're deemed as an active 'non-request' by many users. however, to stop some less developed or less practical ideas being dragged up time and time again, i shall add an 'OTHERS' section to the list, which will simply maintain links to all FR posts in the forum.

this is not something i 'own'. i don't want people to necessarily think that i'm the authority on such matters - i'm certainly not! it's definitely a thing for everyone to make use of and have a say in. if at any point people think i'm being unfair, tyrannical, stupid or selfish, just tell me. i'm basing the whole running of the thread on what you guys say. it's unavoidable that my own opinions get involved along the line, but tell me if you disagree with anything that i've written.

feel free to start a 'DOWN WITH HAYDXN! DOWN WITH HAYDXN!' thread to shock me into submission

[ModuLR]

In defense of Haydxn.. he PM'ed me explaining how it'd be cool to have a organized FR sticky... and said he'd take up the responsibility of adding the FRs to the sticky thread in an organized way. It's not much different than the list that is maintained over at the eXT forums. It's just a thread which tracks feature ideas.. it is in no way insurance that any FR will be implemented by Jules. He has his own agenda. However, I would agree that it might make it easier for the Jules and folks at Mackie folks to see what we, users at KvR, find important.. as well as making it such that anyone can easily see feature requests without the need of bringing it up over and over, thus beating a dead horse. It was done out of interest in bringing the quality of the community back to level of where it was back in the day. There simply was too much bitching on both sides, so everything has stepped up quite a bit in the last week... basically taking the steps needed to bring the community together again. Just generally being helpful... like it used to be.

I think ppl can exhibit some control in the FR's... it would be kinda wack if this forum become nothing but a wishlist that for all practical purposes would never see the light of day... but I don't think a good balance would be hard to maintain.

[AndrewSimon]

FR's are a good thing and this is the place for them.
It's definitely good to hear and exchange ideas, much better then all the other garbage going on here.

[koolkeys]

I also like the formal request system, and seeing that it's been made sticky, at least one mod stands behind it.

However, I'm with LM on this one. So many people do think they are entitled to "their" feature request. And they feel they've been screwed if it doesn't appear. Well, the simple fact is, that we are still in the demo phases, and I highly doubt that the initial release will have anything significant that the demo doesn't.

And the problem isn't that people request things, it's that in every thread they come up with their complaint about what they think is broken. I don't mind people giving requests, but there's a limit. That's why I do agree with the formal system. I think it will help quite a bit.

But people need to realize that a request is just that, a request. Nobody is under any obligation to honor it. So just understand that when requesting something. I, too, am a part of it all. There are things I want. But I'm realistic in thinking and knowing that I may not get it.

Peace ya'll!

Koolkeys

[ModuLR]

Hey Heydxn.. it might be a good idea to update the sticky explaining that the FRs reflect the ideas of the users here at KvR, but offer no insurance that they will every be implemented in Tracktion.

[valley]

Also, make clear that the list is *not* necesarily in line with the views of Mackie (otherwise Beno may likely be wielding his mod stick when he gets back from wherever he is).

[koolkeys]

I also agree with Modular in the fact that the mood around here lately is indeed a nice one. Very helpful. And so many people are stepping up and trying to better Tracktion and the forum. I remember the forum from even the times before I joined with my current username, and before I bought Tracktion. It's what made me choose Tracktion(well, one of MANY reasons).

Koolkeys