Midi Export still a PITA?
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
just tried here with no luck either ... WMP / winamp wont render tracktion MIDI ... energyXT wont import it ... bidule will import and play fine ... live imports plays and re-renders ... which results in a MIDI file playable in WMP / winamp etc ...
... is there a tool (something like midi-ox im guessing) with which we can look at a tracktion MIDI file and compare it to the 'corrected' version to see what its adding / omitting at render that foxes most players ???
slainte
rob
... is there a tool (something like midi-ox im guessing) with which we can look at a tracktion MIDI file and compare it to the 'corrected' version to see what its adding / omitting at render that foxes most players ???
slainte
rob-
- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
hmmmnnn ... on a basic level ... the tracktion export i tried is 25.6kb large ... the same MIDI imported into live4 and re-exported is only 13.6kb ...
... whats all that extra gumph i wonder ???
(back after ER for more testing i guess)
slainte rob
... whats all that extra gumph i wonder ???
(back after ER for more testing i guess)
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
ER? Urgh!
it would be useful to find a simple free MIDI sequencer which can open tracktion MIDI's and re-save them in a "correct" format..
Just as an example of weird MIDI file behaviour though:
We use software called "MIDIscale" at work to convert General MIDI into SP-MIDI.. one particular version we got had an issue which we didn't discover for a couple of weeks: any MIDI files created with Cubase which were converted with this version, crashed Media Player. Files created with any other sequencer were ok. Dodgy files opened perfectly normally in any sequencer, and when re-exported, played fine in Media player.
that was nearly two years ago: every so often we still get a client moaning about a file with that bug in it..
it would be useful to find a simple free MIDI sequencer which can open tracktion MIDI's and re-save them in a "correct" format..
Just as an example of weird MIDI file behaviour though:
We use software called "MIDIscale" at work to convert General MIDI into SP-MIDI.. one particular version we got had an issue which we didn't discover for a couple of weeks: any MIDI files created with Cubase which were converted with this version, crashed Media Player. Files created with any other sequencer were ok. Dodgy files opened perfectly normally in any sequencer, and when re-exported, played fine in Media player.
that was nearly two years ago: every so often we still get a client moaning about a file with that bug in it..
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
just DLed this simple app (since i couldnt find a way in MIDI-ox to view a MIDI file and tracker V3 just throws loads of hex at me) ...
http://www.simtel.net/product.php%5Burl ... ge%5D59483
... even to my MIDI-illiterate eye its obvious that tracktions MIDI files are - erm - different to most others ... there seems to be loads of extra header type info and depending on how you export the MIDI from T sometimes the event data doesnt even appear !?!
... looking at the error dialogue that media player classic throws at me when trying to play a T MIDI file (and my interpretation of the extra info the MIID file viewer is showing me) i GUESS the issues are with the way T MIDI files report timing and tempo data ...
... anyone with more MIDI nous than me confirm this ???
slainte rob
http://www.simtel.net/product.php%5Burl ... ge%5D59483
... even to my MIDI-illiterate eye its obvious that tracktions MIDI files are - erm - different to most others ... there seems to be loads of extra header type info and depending on how you export the MIDI from T sometimes the event data doesnt even appear !?!
... looking at the error dialogue that media player classic throws at me when trying to play a T MIDI file (and my interpretation of the extra info the MIID file viewer is showing me) i GUESS the issues are with the way T MIDI files report timing and tempo data ...
... anyone with more MIDI nous than me confirm this ???
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
i think so too: I have a MIDI file with a 7/8 time signature which, while it seems to import OK with the correct time-signature recognised (and plays at the correct speed) the reported tempo is half what it should be, and when exported from Tracktion and imported into Cubase, has had the tempo halved again!pHz wrote:i GUESS the issues are with the way T MIDI files report timing and tempo data ...
... anyone with more MIDI nous than me confirm this ???
(this is on our list btw Rob..)
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
yeah - i know ... but id not personally been that interested in it until it piqued my interest yesterday and i was just wondering whether theres any way of looking inside the MIDI to spot any obvious differences between T and other sequencers when they export MIDI ...platinumears wrote:(this is on our list btw Rob..)
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
The non-T2 midi files in your example plat... are Midi File Type 0 files. These files have all Midi Data saved on a single track. The T2 midi files are Type 1, which means they are multi-track. A Type 1 midi file can be a single file that when opened in tracktion can span multiple tracks (tho it usually not used). I have a feeling, programs such as winamp only handle Type 0 midi files. The non-T2 midi file were saved with time division of 480 ticks/quater note. Tracktion must convert this to it's native 960 ticks/quater note when it saves it's midi file... which probably explains the tempo difference. Can cubase VST5 handle 960 ticks/quarter note resolution? maybe 480 was it's limit, thus 1/2 the speed.
The files tracktion is creating are in fact valid Type 1 midi files tho. They don't appear to be bugged at all.
for more information on how the midi spec works go here... http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/midifiles.html
*edit* I did some testing on stepchild midi files which are Type-1, and they open in WMP... maybe there is some addition info in the T midi file (because as I mentioned, they are valid).
more investigating...
The files tracktion is creating are in fact valid Type 1 midi files tho. They don't appear to be bugged at all.
for more information on how the midi spec works go here... http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/midifiles.html
*edit* I did some testing on stepchild midi files which are Type-1, and they open in WMP... maybe there is some addition info in the T midi file (because as I mentioned, they are valid).
more investigating...ModuLR / Radio
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
type0 MIDI files are automatically exploded by channel on import into Tracktion. Winamp and Media Player both happily play type 1 files created with Cubase.ModuLR wrote: The non-T2 midi files in your example plat... are Midi File Type 0 files. These files have all Midi Data saved on a single track. The T2 midi files are Type 1, which means they are multi-track. A Type 1 midi file can be a single file that when opened in tracktion will span multiple tracks (multiple clips). I have a feeling, programs such as winamp only handle Type 0 midi files.
Cubase VSTs maximum display resolution is 15360 ticks pqn.. but most files import correctly anyway, its only that one with the 7/8 signature that had tempo problems..ModuLR wrote: The non-T2 midi file were saved with time division of 480 ticks/quater note. Tracktion must convert this to it's native 960 ticks/quater note when it saves it's midi file... which probably explains the tempo difference. Can cubase VST5 handle 960 ticks/quarter note resolution? maybe 480 was it's limit, thus 1/2 the speed.
Try these full length files: ACDC.mid and ACDC_type1.mid were both created with Cubase, and both play fine in any media player. ACDC_T2.mid is the type1 file imported into Tracktion and re-exported: this does not play in any media players..ModuLR wrote: The files tracktion is creating are in fact valid Type 1 midi files tho. They don't appear to be bugged at all.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
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- KVRist
- 169 posts since 10 Feb, 2003 from Melbourne, Australia
Hi All,
I've experienced some wierdness with Tracktion generated midi files also (Mac).
My notation software (Encore) can't open them correctly. I just get a single bar with a rest in it which plays really fast with hundreds of beats in it. I just assumed the problem was with Encore as the same files open OK in Quicktime.
I didn't get any resolution from the support folk at Encore. They did try to help me though and we exchanged files back and forth.
My workaround is to open up the file up in Muzys or Cubasis and resave the file. This is a little inconvinient however because these are OS9 apps.
Steve
I've experienced some wierdness with Tracktion generated midi files also (Mac).
My notation software (Encore) can't open them correctly. I just get a single bar with a rest in it which plays really fast with hundreds of beats in it. I just assumed the problem was with Encore as the same files open OK in Quicktime.
I didn't get any resolution from the support folk at Encore. They did try to help me though and we exchanged files back and forth.
My workaround is to open up the file up in Muzys or Cubasis and resave the file. This is a little inconvinient however because these are OS9 apps.
Steve
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
This ties in with my experiences: other than some possible weirdness with tempos @ odd time sigs (which I suspect is down to Jules's kooky way of defing things by beat instead of bar!) the data all seems to be ok.. there's just something else thats confusing certain apps.Steve Prince wrote:My workaround is to open up the file up in Muzys or Cubasis and resave the file. This is a little inconvinient however because these are OS9 apps.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
right then ... truly simple MIDI file (1 bar ... 4/4 ... 120bpm ... four quarter notes on C3) to try and keep actualy note data down to a minimum and see if we can spot the discrepancies ...
... rendered in SX3 (thanks sasch) ... tracktion ... energyXT ...
... simple analysis (no ability in hex here) in a MIDI file analyser ...
(from left to right - SX3 ... T2 ... eXT)
im no MIDI expert AT ALL but obvious oddnesses i can see are the metronome and quarter note counts in the T2 file (4/4 but 96 32nds in a quarter note ?!?) ...
anyone see anything else ???
slainte rob
... rendered in SX3 (thanks sasch) ... tracktion ... energyXT ...
... simple analysis (no ability in hex here) in a MIDI file analyser ...
(from left to right - SX3 ... T2 ... eXT)
im no MIDI expert AT ALL but obvious oddnesses i can see are the metronome and quarter note counts in the T2 file (4/4 but 96 32nds in a quarter note ?!?) ...
anyone see anything else ???
slainte
rob