New plug in the bundle ppl!!

[chico.co.uk]

If he's talking traditional classical (esp orchestral) composition, then yes, tracktion isn't the best for it, as it doesn't have a score editor. So while we're all getting touchy about it, the man has a point. That's not personally how i use the word "composer", but it's not too much of a leap of logic ...

I found an even better sounding acoustic drum kit at Natural Studio, here's the demo and it has exactly the natural sound I was looking for: http://www.naturalstudio.co.uk/demos/ns ... 20demo.mp3
So I am now mapping this kit into my samplers

Have a look at this mate, mappings for the NsKit to various samplers formats, including LM2, which can be loaded by RMIV. Also DR008 and a few others i've not played with

http://www.groovemonkee.com/imagesf/NSKit7_Goodies.zip

[bugs]

Care to elaborate?

Not really, it just pisses-off the song writers. I write the ocassional song, but it's just one form and one of the smaller ones at that. Generally, song is more about the lyric than the music or, at the very least, text driven. Almost never do song writers venture beyond there single form and when they do it is usually a disaster. And the reason its usually a disaster is because they think song writing and composing are basically the same thing. And it is more than just scale: e.g. John Adams' "Harmonielehrer" is not just a big song. There is also the issue of the nature of the harmonic, melodic, textural, rhythmic, dymnamic, etc content. It goes on and on, the differences, the two disciplines are not even in the same realm--diffeent intent and different issues.

Songwriters, particularly of the Pop variety, will aways argue to the contrary and consider serious composers elitist snobs who compose for rich old people. But, if you want to know what sonwriters will be using for musical material 100 years from now, just listen to what composers are doing today. Of course, there are some exceptions, but very few.

[SaviorNeeded]

I think if you are a composer, you get to charge more...

Tom

[Lunch Money]

Just sophistry and rhetoric. Without meaning to, though, you DID demonstrate a sense of elitism in your post. I say don't be defensive, though-- the world's best elitists are the ones who wear it like a badge. They're far more interesting characters.

[headquest]

I would say it is targeted more to the musician as opposed to the engineer. I think that's the real difference.

I agree with that braj...but...

It seems to me that we lump together programs that are plainly aimed at engineers, and are essentialy designed for Studio Production (e.g. Cubase, Logic, DP, ProTools, Sonar) with those that seem more specifically aimed at musicians/players/composers/etc (e.g. Tracktion, Ableton Live, Reason, P5, Acid, etc). These programs are less technical, easier to use, and attempt to get inside the musicians - rather than the engineers - mindset.

The "but" is because I think that while Jules originally aimed Tracktion at the musician (and did a great job of reinventing the sequencer paradigm specifically for them) Tracktion as of T2 is showing signs of shifting more towards the needs of the engineer.

While the musicians using Tracktion were crying out for a better timestretch, folder tracks, etc, Mackie implemented broadcast wavs, 64-bit mixing, support for expensive controllers that none of the old users have, etc. It would be stupid to ignore the fact - or worse still deny it, as some have tried - that there is a marked shift of emphasis in this release.

In the short term I think that this will mean a more diverse audience for Tracktion. But what will be more interesting is to see whether Tracktion 3 is aimed more squarely at the engineers in the way that Cubase etc are.

[IIRs]

Composers are just Songwriters with their heads slightly further up their arses..

[operandx]

This song writer composer stuff is just bollox

It is all music..

Some music is simple
Some music is more complex
Some simple music has no lyrics
Some complex music has lyrics
Some music you like
Some music you hate

The distinction between song writer and composer just exists to make some people feel better about themselves

[Yossarian]

Just happened to stumble on this thread (I’m not even a Tracktion user – yet ) and I found sonicsmurf’s posts very interesting as his vision of a “virtual band” seems to be close to my own. I agree that Studiophonik looks like it will be an ideal VSTi for this purpose but in the meantime here are my thoughts on a possible setup:

Drums: BFD is certainly a good option but you might also want to look into the VSTi:s from www.toontrack.com - DFHS and the brand new Custom&Vintage (the mp3 demos sound fantastic). There’s also the Imperial Drums VSTi from www.scarbee.com which has very deep and detailed sampling.

Bass: Trilogy has already been mentioned and there’s also the Scarbee J-Bass. It’s a Fender Jazz type bass (actually a Celinder) which in the Scarbee tradition has been meticulously sampled with lots of articulations. You’ll need a softsampler like HALion or Kontakt for this one (which might be a good idea to have anyway).

Guitar: I actually owned Virtual Guitarist and VGEE but sold them. They sound great as long as you’re willing to stick to the supplied phrases but in the long run I found them a bit limiting. There are quite a few multi-sampled guitar libraries around (again, for most of them you’ll need a softsampler), e.g. Giga Clean Electric Guitars from www.vintaudio.com, the Quantum Leap ’56 Strat from www.soundsonline.com, Lyrical Distortion from www.beladmedia.com, Overdrive from www.vsl.co.at and my new favourite, the LPC from www.prominy.com (listen to those mp3 demos and be amazed).

For acoustic guitar there’s RealGuitar from www.musiclab.com which is very versatile but listening to the demos I actually prefer the tone of the ElectroAcoustic VSTi from www.dasample.com .

Pianos: Here’s another area where you’ll find a much bigger selection if you have a softsampler. There are just too many to mention but some of the best are the offerings from PMI, Vintaudio, Bardstown and SampleTekk. www.precisionsound.net has a nice upright piano which is available in sfz format (freeware sample player from www.rgcaudio.com ). PrecisionSound are running a KvR promo atm where forum members can get a 15% discount on all sample libraries, worth checking out.

Electric pianos: Again, PrecisionSound has a couple of nice ones, Dusty Electric (Rhodes) and Funky Electric (Wurly). Of course Mr Ray and Mr Tramp are not to be missed (the fact that these are donationware is just mindboggling). Scarbee has very nice Rhodes and Wurly sample libraries and there’s also the Elektrik Piano from NI.

Oh, just remembered that Bela D Media are coming out with a drums/acoustic bass/electric guitar combo called Studio B which looks interesting. Better stop now, this post is already too long.

/Yoss

[nuisance sonore]

Composers are just Songwriters with their heads slightly further up their arses..

But a few inches lower than sound engineers? I agree totally.

[simondsouza]

operandx wrote:

The distinction between song writer and composer just exists to make some people feel better about themselves

My view is this:

A songwriter is someone who writes songs - usually with lyrics, though one can, I guess, have a song without lyrics.

A composer is a more general description of someone who writes music in general.

Some composers don't write 'songs' and so wouldn't consider themselves 'songwriters'.

However, I would argue that all songwriters are composers.

I think that these distinctions exist so that people can define what they do. I am a composer who sometimes writes 'songs' and sometimes writes 'pieces of music' and sometimes writes 'music for theatre'. The words help me to describe the different facets of what I do to other people.

But you are right in that being able to define what I do makes me feel better about myself! It's all about self-expression!

Regards

Simon

[semiquaver]

the difference between songwriter and composer has to do with whos paying. When a dignified organization wants to be able to say they spent their money well, ok, I'm a composer.

But seriously - songwriters write words. If you set anothers words to music you are more accurately called the composer - like in rogers and hammerstein - composer and lyricist. If you write instrumental music (or in this day I should say non-verbal music) you are a composer.

btw simon do you know a composer once frrom Brighton named Stoneham?

[dealwithit]

Which are the most realistic/natural sounding VSTi's to set up a perfect virtual band?

I like this idea, in fact it's something I move more and more towards as I continue a slash-and-burn attack on my VST folder, eliminating those VST/VSTi that I don't use, and probably don't represent any "real" instruments that one would ever hear in a traditional four- or five-piece band.

Any ideas on a freeware bass to simulate a P-bass? I had VB-1 in Cubase, but I'm really not crazy about it.

[Yossarian]

Any ideas on a freeware bass to simulate a P-bass? I had VB-1 in Cubase, but I'm really not crazy about it.

Keep an eye out for Geoff Khan’s Ultimate Bass Kit. It won’t be free but very moderately priced.

www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80733

/Yoss

[sonicsmurf]

...I continue a slash-and-burn attack on my VST folder, eliminating those VST/VSTi that I don't use, and probably don't represent any "real" instruments that one would ever hear in a traditional four- or five-piece band.

Yes, that's exactly what I do, too

Any ideas on a freeware bass to simulate a P-bass?

Yes, but, only a funny idea.
-First I tried 'Steinberg VB-1'. Forget it. A completely useless thing, and embarrassing for Steinberg to bundle Cubase with such a piece of..
-I tried Broomstick, also not useable in a "virtual 5-person band". Only for cool bass solos - which I don't need http://bornemark.se/bb
-I checked out the bass sample demos by Geoff Khan here at KVR: Incredibly realistic sounding demos!!
But again, these samples are perfect for bass solos or for drum + bass, but my experience is that as soon as I take an already existing mix (with guitars and singing and everything), and I insert one of these "perfect solo bass samples" into the bass track, in the resulting mix the bass will sound boring or not fat enough or too thin/metallic! The reason is obvious: Someone makes a perfect bass guitar sample bank, of course this person will buy the most expensive bass strings before doing the sampling work, of course the person will make the recording *as clear as possible*, and of course the result will be a perfect "virtual solo bass". -- But in a band, the sound spectrum of a bass is only a part of the whole picture.
Let me tell you a real example: Today I took an old 80's recording, it was 'Wuthering Heights' by Kate Bush, and I chose that old recording because the bass guitar and the snare drum are interesting in this particular song, both of them are not very loud in the mix, but still powerful and expressive. So I analyzed and compared the bass and snare versus all the "perfect samples" in Tracktion, and I used a MIDI structure of the same song to make a cover version that should sound as natural as possible (especially the piano). The result was, once again, disappointing: All my "perfect samples" sounded inacceptable as soon as they were in a complete mix. My snare drum sample (from Natural Studio) sounded perfect and punchy when played only as part of the drum kit, but when played in a complex mix of instruments that occupy all sorts of frequency ranges, the snaredrum lost all of its power! Because my piano sample or bass sample or guitar sample did not really "match" with the others, and the resulting combination was simply wrong. As always in music, everything is "relative" to each other.

So in a perfect world, for a perfect VSTi band they would probably have to sample a whole rehearsing room full of instruments, right there with all the exact same acoustics.
Or, think of the old band 'Supertramp': Their E-Piano sounded great, their bass sounded great, their drumkit sounded great, and so, whatever tune they played, they always had the same "band sound". They basically had ONE instrument per band member. And this way they could concentrate only on the music. Again, a *limitation* of choice is the key to any truly great composition.
This is my dream too. When I find my perfect combination and have my little "virtual band" set up, I want to stop playing with the computer. I want to no longer look at sound banks, settings, effects, and all the stuff. I want to PLAY and HEAR, not think about all the possibilites. Thinking back, when I was playing in real bands (and in one band as band leader), then and there it was the most natural way of how to make music: You had your rehearsing room, in which there was your instrument, you went in the room, to your instrument, and started to play.
So we concentrated on the music, the flow of it, the life in it, the structure. - A painter does not make (or should I say 'compose'? ) better paintings if he has a hundred times more different brushes. - Anyway, most of the "perfect solo bass sample banks" will not sound well when they are put in a complete mix.

For my tests in this field, my "reference recordings" include records by Dire Straits - well yeah, again its those Eighties recordings but back then, producers and the music scene in general focused much more on "several musicians playing together". And since this seems an interesting starting point for a test, I take a Dire Straits record and analyze the bass guitar, then I compare it to the absolute best sampled bass guitars (and usually I make a "cover version" of the song and then compare how my sampled bass sounds in my own mix). The result is the same each time: While a great sample by Geoff is absolutely impressive for a solo bass, in a Dire Straits (band) recording the bass sound is miles, miles, and miles away from the sample. Because in a real band mix, the bass sounds *far less* good, it actually sounds a little muddy, and as a solo instrument it would sound quite boring - but it sounds perfect inside the complete band mix.
- So, the funny solution I have found for a "bandmix-compatible" Precision electric bass sample is: I downloaded many bass guitar soundfonts, extracted the individual samples (with the 'Vienna' software), put one of the samples in Tracktion's built-in little sampler, let the complete "band mix" run and checked whether the bass sounded real in the mix. And finally I found a sample set in an old soundfont, and it's the only bass sample that works. Not for bass solos, but for band setups.

By the way, for the drums I today found a kit that is even better and more realistic in a complete mix than the 'NS7' drumkit!! It's called 'GoldDrums.sf2', a free soundfont. Definitely the best until now. So you are thinking, "GoldDrums" is a cheap name, but it's the best sounding kit. To further prove it: In a forum of guitarists, you will find the phrase "Many people here swear by the Golddrums sf2" http://www.guitar-forum.net/uk/Drum_mac ... 48428.html
- It makes sense, GoldDrums is the "most realistic in a band mix sounding" kit I found.

For piano I have now tested other sample banks (even Steinberg samples), but the only one that still sounds "real" when played in a complete mix is the 'Kawai grand piano' sample by Geoff Khan. It's sounds absolute real.
Guitar will always be difficult. I tried a few things, none of them convincing. Only that dumb little guitar sample from "Plugsound Free", the 'Spanish Guitar' sample, sounds real and alive. So I am currently working on a new sample bank made of that, and I am learning how to create soundfonts myself
EP: Elektrik Piano from NI is the best so far, and I bought LoungeLizard2, but: MrRay sounds best when in a mix.

- When I have my "perfect virtual band" together, I will post my setup here, together with the track settings (with 'Blockfish' and 'VintageWarmer' in some tracks to make the overall mix sound even more real..)

About the package 'Studiophonik' (not yet released), I can only hope that the "band instruments" that it will contain will really be of the highest quality. And I strongly doubt it! Because traditionally, all these "one-mand-band" instruments, synths and whatever was produced in the past, were awful! The target group for such instruments was people who for example played a bit of piano, but simply did not care about a "perfect" hi-hat sound. Now, what I am looking for would be based on the concept that an audiophile who is fully aware of the real sounds of *several* instruments (because he actually plays several instruments) will have a combination of instruments that each one are of the highest possible quality. I mean, if in a (real) band the guitar player has an expensive instrument but the bass player uses a cheap old thing, it makes no sense either. But there is one bigger problem with these "1-man-band" keyboards:
I mean, every time I tried something like that, the promises were much bigger than the results! and usually they include in their package a whole pile of useless stuff. Really, I do not need 20 extra free Acid/Techno basses in the same box when all I want is... *sigh* a handful of real instruments that can be used to make.. real music. Just like Supertramp had only a few instruments, and a drummer had only one drum kit, one that sounded great, and that was good enough for playing a whole 2-hour set of different songs - yes, all with the same drum kit. Is it really soo Eighties to dream of something like that in the age of digital sound production machines?

@Yossarian:
Thank you for your friendly posting! Very interesting links, these will be very helpful. Thank you (from Switzerland to Sweden

[sonicsmurf]

But seriously - songwriters write words.

Maybe there is a little "but" in there? In many professional studio productions, the songwriter will not write any words. The songwriter writes the sheet music, the chords, the melody lines etc. But then, there is an other person, the lyricist, who will add the lyrics to the song that the "songwriter" wrote. Many pros in the business only write lyrics, other people write only the music for songs - but no words.

Funny enough that both types call themselves songwriters, if they really need a description for their work - or if they need it in the contracting process. By the way, one of my favorite websites since years is http://www.lyricist.com