I am so torn...wicked midi problems, but great audio!

[customdigi]

Hey guys and gals,

I have been lurking here for about a month, since I got turned onto Tracktion (v. 1.0.6.1 I think?) I have been a die-hard pro tools guy for about 8 years and was looking for something a little less overkill for some basic voiceover editing/production and midi sequencing work...Obviously, pro tools was fine for that but I have quickly fallen in love with Tracktion's approach to just about everything...except....MIDI!

I am running a mac mini, straight outta the box (256 mb RAM) with the latest version of OSX. Not tiger, but you know what I mean...Anyway, I installed my SPIKE interface and had some audio glitching problems that seemed to be occuring because of USB issues (in the mac mini, the bluetooth interface runs off of the USB bus) and I just couldn't get it to work without glitching in Tracktion, Itunes, Peak, you name it. So I decided to go firewire, and returned my Spike for the MAudio Firewire 410, with every intention to continue using tracktion. While the audio situation has cleared up, I am still having the same persistent midi timing issue within traction, that I had while using the Spike.

When I am playing back a midi sequence from Tracktion to my Korg Triton, the timing gets really screwy anytime I do anything on the screen. Zoom in, soom out, resize a window, fart...with the latency set to the farthest right in "settings", the problem is at its least, but is still bad enough to be unusable. Kinda like having a drunk drummer on the throne.

Am I missing something obvious? I know I have the minimum amount of RAM installed, but I just downloaded a demo version of Logic Express Pro, which has a 512mb REQUIREMENT and my midi is playing back perfectly, and the CPU meter doesn't even flinch. No matter what I do on the screen.

I have also tried optimizing the desktop and stuff by turning off shadows, font smoothing, etc. all the normal stuff, even going down to 256 colors and nothing seems to work. The Tracktion 2 demo was giving me the same fits. I don't know how to turn off hardware acceleration in OSX, either...not even sure it is possible, or I would try that to.

I really don't want to abandon Tracktion but I need to get this figured out before me and T get engaged and possible start a family, ya know? It sucks that the program I DONT want to use doesn't have this problem.

Any suggestions, flaming -- ANYTHING -- would be appreciated at this point. I'm desperate.

Sincerely,

Matt C.
Fort Lauderdale, FL

[stewartg]

Hey Matt,

I have a Roland USB midi/audio device running on my G3/700 iBook. Admittedly, I haven't tried to do midi out, but everything else seems fine even at 3ms audio latency.

Some suggestions:

Make sure you have installed the latest driver from m-audio. These devices often ship with out-of-date software. For me, this greatly improved the latency.

Optimising the OS drawing settings is unlikely to improve the situation, because Tracktion does all of its own rendering. I wouldn't be trying to disable hardware acceleration because you need all the speed you can get.

Its a little odd to me that changing the audio latency improves the midi timing. This suggests that perhaps there is some sort of contention or scheduling problem inside the driver, or between the driver and the device. The Firewire 410 can be run at seriously high sampling rates, so you may be losing midi accuracy if you are using too much bandwidth for audio. What audio settings are you using? Try reducing the number of channels, and the sampling rate and see if that helps.

One thing I've noticed with T2 is that it draws a little monitor bar in the input device icon, which means that its sampling the device even if you're not recording from it. I don't know if this can be turned off, but that might also help some.

One last thing is to make sure that you're not trying to run other CPU- or memory-intensive applications (eg. web browsers) at the same time. Try running the "Activity Monitor" utility, and verify that nothing else is excessively using CPU time.

Hope this helps.

[customdigi]

Hey Stewart,

Thanks for your thoughtful response...unfortunately, it seems that I have done all of the things that you mentioned to no avail.

Not only does the latency setting affect midi timing as I said earlier, it KILLS it at even a middle of the road setting.

I'm suspecting that Tracktion is at fault, only because I have had success importing and playing back the same midi sequence in Logic, rock solid.

Midi out to an external device is the only problem that I have had with Tracktion. Everything else works brilliantly. BTW, I am only running at 44.1 as far sample rate, and only have one audio track going...

Activity monitor is barely breathing...

I think you are onto something with your comment about a scheduling problem (prioritization), but it seems that it is between the device and tracktion, not between the driver and the device. As I mentioned earlier, I had the EXACT same problem with the Mackie Spike, which presumably should work flawlessly with Tracktion.

Thanks again...
Matt

[aldi]

tracktion is at fault midi and the gui takes up too much cpu power sometimes. don't know why, but i recognized and mentioned here also often.

[Lunch Money]

aldi, you seem to be the only person with major GUI problems. I don't know what's up wit' dat! On the other hand, I rarely run 20 tracks at once.

Greg

[freeztar]

Why not just render the track and forget about midi out?

[Todd24]

I find that with using the midi on my EZbus is glitchy and note drop or hang. I hooked up my midi connections to the sound blaster and all is well. I think it is the Ezbuses fault.

That probably does'nt help you but I thought I would share anyways. You could try running the midi from a differant port.

[customdigi]

I agree about rendering the track and forgetting about MIDI. That is how I like to work...get out of the midi realm as soon as humanly possible! ...but I have a zillion sounds in my Triton that I use regularly. If you use an external midi keyboard/sound module, you need to play out via midi to your device with reliable timing so that you can record it back in as audio (you can only "render" software instruments). Know what I'm saying? So far, especially with jazz/swing rhythms, my results have been less than inspiring because the feel is everything. I don't need Tracktions's help making me sound any whiter when I am swingin'.

Is there help on the way from Mackie...the more I dig, the more I see other threads concerning this subject that are pretty much open ended...

[stewartg]

Not only does the latency setting affect midi timing as I said earlier, it KILLS it at even a middle of the road setting.

Don't know what's going on, but I think this is the most important clue to the problem.

I'm suspecting that Tracktion is at fault, only because I have had success importing and playing back the same midi sequence in Logic, rock solid.

Yeah, it does look like that...

I think you are onto something with your comment about a scheduling problem (prioritization), but it seems that it is between the device and tracktion, not between the driver and the device. As I mentioned earlier, I had the EXACT same problem with the Mackie Spike, which presumably should work flawlessly with Tracktion.

The issue with both of these devices is that midi and audio are not truly asynchronous at the device level, so I guess its possible that audio I/O can block midi I/O or vice versa. The could lead to subtle problems. Suppose that the GUI and midi scheduler share a common data-structure protected by interlocks. Then this sort of scenario could lead to some kind of priority inversion that might not be seen on other types of device. Usually, you try to avoid this situation by using "dual" data structures that can be accessed without locking. In any case, the designers should test for this sort of thing, especially for their own devices.

[Axl]

Hey Matt,

Tracktion is a wonderful app, but the midi out/gui issue is the reason why I quit using it on my iBook. Unfortunately it only works flawlessly on my pc, which is the only reason I still own one. I've brought this topic up on more than one occasion, but it seems it is not a priority in the development of Tracktion right now. Probably, because most Tracktion users don't use external sound sources anymore.

Now I'm considering getting a Mac Mini and was hoping the better graphics in this machine (compared to my iBook 700) and/or some change in T2 would fix it. But your posting suggests it's still there. Maybe I should sell my Roland XP 30 and start doing things internally instead. But it's still a shame. I read that Jules had an iMac or iBook. Seems like he never hooked up an external synth as a sound source.

Can you elaborate a little more on the Bluetooth interface sharing the USB bus on the Mini? Is this the original Apple BT module? I would definitely use it with a wireless keyboard and mouse. I have a Motu 828 for audio but my midi interface would be USB. Are there any problems with that? Or could you provide me with a link on that? I don't wanna get all wireless and then find out I can't use Midi anymore at all.

Greets,
Axl

[haydxn]

i get GUI problems too sometimes.. it definitely struggles more with T2 than it did with T1. i think i may try making some schemes that only use opaque colours and see if that helps matters at all.

[rich_h]

There is definitely a problem with external MIDI and interaction with Tracktion's GUI, and it appears to affect both Mac and PC. I'm sure Jules is on the case!

[customdigi]

Hey Axl,

I'm not sure if it is the original bluetooth module or what, but in any case, it is not the culprit with the midi timing. I cracked that little bastard open and took out the bluetooth just to make sure...anyway, if you are doing midi in apps besides tracktion it shouldn't make much of a difference.

If you do get a mac mini, order the extra ram (load it up with 1gb) from the get go and you will save some money and be much happier. It is NOT an option, no matter what your host, or how little you tax it. The OS flies with the extra memory -- it seems like twice the computer that it really is.

The bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo is awesome for triggering rec/play while sitting at the keyboard.

Also, I can't BELIEVE that people have given up on their external sound modules and keyboards to the point where they are barely supported...but it seems to be the case, eh?

Good luck!

Matt

[cbit]

(since t2 i've had a few veryslowgui moments too)

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

I've given up with MIDI on my PC w/ T2, however I still use my Fantom X6 as controller and audio source, and sequence (when needed) on the Fantom. Same with my Motif ES Rack.. driven from the Fantom, then audio-only in to T2.

Just controlling VSTi from the Fantom seems to work a treat, so far.

My system: WinXP SP2, 2GB RAM, 3.0GHz P4/800Mhz FSB, ATI Radeon 9600XT graphics card, M-Audio Delta 44, 120GB WD HD, 300GB WD HD, both 7200 RPM.