Well since I'm the person who suggested a (polite and professional) lobby thread I'm going to finally chime in.
First, I'm not on either side of this issue. I live in the US and can have my upgrade at any moment I choose.
This is all about a DESIRE of non U.S. users to be able to get T2 at a comparable price, ie $150.
Before anyone starts flaming me, I know Germ suggested $100. I know there may be 3rd party issues, and I know that that wouldn't be fair to paid T1 owners.
Now let's go back to the moment Germ started his thread and suppose he had suggested $120 for a "no frills" download.
That's the same price U.S. NFR users are getting the full boxed version for with the $30 rebate.
What would be the problem then?
Those who live in places T2 isn't yet available, or who have to pay much higher prices due to exchange rates and overseas shipping are just trying to find a way to get T2 at a fair price. Nothing more.
chim
free lunch
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- KVRist
- 127 posts since 28 Dec, 2004
For those that live in a place where the boxed version will be the equivalent of $200 or more due to exchange rates and shipping they are not paying for nothing. They would be paying less for less effectively.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
this is all getting pretty boring pretty quickly ... but in the interests of trying to keep things civil ...
... first about the exchange rate issue - yes a lot of us in europe / australia / canada / wherever get stiffed over the $1 = £1 (or whatever currency) pricing policy ... BUT ... this is by no means just a mackie shortcoming and so is probably a diversionary issue here that could more fruitfully be discussed elsewhere ...
... second ... mackie DID balls up over sending the email out to NFR users and not having their upgrade back-end system quite right initially but i REALLY dont think there was anything other than slight incompetence involved and so talk of false advertising and lawsuits should again be left out of the discussion here ...
... as for NFR users getting their rebates on the T2 boxed edition outside the US ... im SURE this WILL be addressed as soon as distributors in those regions get their act together ...
... that leaves the question of whether NFR users should be offered a download-only T2 at a reduced price ... since there IS no downloadable T2 to speak of yet (im not counting the upgrade for T1 owners since its pretty clear i think how that works) i admit it is a thorny subject ... but only if you ignore the fact (as ive said elsewhere) that mackie NEVER hinted that anything like this was part of their marketing strategy ... it was always made clear that buying T1 WOULD get you a good upgrade deal and it was also always pretty clear that the NFR was nothing more than a promotional tool to get new customers into the upgrade path (although if T1 NFR does everything you need then coolcool) by encouraging them to buy a full T1 license BEFORE the launch of T2 ... having said that it might be VERY good PR on mackies part if they are able at some point to offer a downloadable T2 for registered NFR users at some kind of discount (but as some have fairly suggested maybe not as attractive as the one full T1 users got) ... dont know whether it is remotely likely to happen though for all the reasons mentioned here and elsewhere ...
slainte
rob
... first about the exchange rate issue - yes a lot of us in europe / australia / canada / wherever get stiffed over the $1 = £1 (or whatever currency) pricing policy ... BUT ... this is by no means just a mackie shortcoming and so is probably a diversionary issue here that could more fruitfully be discussed elsewhere ...
... second ... mackie DID balls up over sending the email out to NFR users and not having their upgrade back-end system quite right initially but i REALLY dont think there was anything other than slight incompetence involved and so talk of false advertising and lawsuits should again be left out of the discussion here ...
... as for NFR users getting their rebates on the T2 boxed edition outside the US ... im SURE this WILL be addressed as soon as distributors in those regions get their act together ...
... that leaves the question of whether NFR users should be offered a download-only T2 at a reduced price ... since there IS no downloadable T2 to speak of yet (im not counting the upgrade for T1 owners since its pretty clear i think how that works) i admit it is a thorny subject ... but only if you ignore the fact (as ive said elsewhere) that mackie NEVER hinted that anything like this was part of their marketing strategy ... it was always made clear that buying T1 WOULD get you a good upgrade deal and it was also always pretty clear that the NFR was nothing more than a promotional tool to get new customers into the upgrade path (although if T1 NFR does everything you need then coolcool) by encouraging them to buy a full T1 license BEFORE the launch of T2 ... having said that it might be VERY good PR on mackies part if they are able at some point to offer a downloadable T2 for registered NFR users at some kind of discount (but as some have fairly suggested maybe not as attractive as the one full T1 users got) ... dont know whether it is remotely likely to happen though for all the reasons mentioned here and elsewhere ...
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
im not angry at all, lol, thats just your refelection. think about it... did i say anything remotely angry? HAHAHA! you're the angry one.
im just making fun of the NFR whiners. i don't do it often, and usually i feel guilty about making fun of dumbasses, but this time, i got nothing...
anybody that knows who i am in here, knows that im a nice guy. but dudes... you don't deserve anything here.
but i would like to let you know that this forum is about a product that is for sale. for SALE! for a well documented price. pay what they're asking, or do without.
you got T1(NFR)..for free. SIT DOWN!!
if you were to purchase now, this essentially makes you a new buyer, since you didn't pay at the beginning. you don't have an arguement. pay what all new buyers have had to pay...lol.
this aint no hippie commune. there is no free lunch. this aint the thrift shop. this aint a yard sale, so no haggling over prices. this aint no welfare office.
just because you have a free copy of something that took alot of strife to create does not entitle you to aything beyond the period of enjoyment that you have experienced up until now. game over.
what the NFR'ers are asking for is a residual discount, just because they have experienced T1 because of a NFR offer from a previous version...
whatever, still asking for free lunch. just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user. you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard". it means you got to enjoy what the rest of us had to pay for, for free. you've already had your free lunch, why do you expect anything more?
get your wallets out. or get out.
im just making fun of the NFR whiners. i don't do it often, and usually i feel guilty about making fun of dumbasses, but this time, i got nothing...
anybody that knows who i am in here, knows that im a nice guy. but dudes... you don't deserve anything here.
but i would like to let you know that this forum is about a product that is for sale. for SALE! for a well documented price. pay what they're asking, or do without.
you got T1(NFR)..for free. SIT DOWN!!
if you were to purchase now, this essentially makes you a new buyer, since you didn't pay at the beginning. you don't have an arguement. pay what all new buyers have had to pay...lol.
this aint no hippie commune. there is no free lunch. this aint the thrift shop. this aint a yard sale, so no haggling over prices. this aint no welfare office.
just because you have a free copy of something that took alot of strife to create does not entitle you to aything beyond the period of enjoyment that you have experienced up until now. game over.
what the NFR'ers are asking for is a residual discount, just because they have experienced T1 because of a NFR offer from a previous version...
whatever, still asking for free lunch. just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user. you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard". it means you got to enjoy what the rest of us had to pay for, for free. you've already had your free lunch, why do you expect anything more?
get your wallets out. or get out.
Last edited by lharless on Sun May 08, 2005 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 453 posts since 10 Jul, 2003 from Rotterdam
'Free lunch' is just a way of being dismissive about other peoples (for the most part very polite) requests..whatever, still asking for free lunch. just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user. you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard".
You might as well say that anyone asking for bug fixes and Feature Requests are also asking for a free lunch
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- KVRist
- 207 posts since 27 Mar, 2005 from Spain
You know, you really should read the complete set of posts more carefully. Nobody is asking for anything for free - everyone is prepared to pay. Most even appreciate there is no reason on Earth why they should get any sort of a 'deal' on a piece of software they got for nothing in the first place.lharless wrote:whatever, still asking for free lunch. just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user. you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard". it means you got to enjoy what the rest of us had to pay for, for free. you've already had your free lunch, why do you expect anything more?
get your wallets out. or get out.
The main issues are twofold;
1 - Many users already have the plugins (or they have equivalents) so they don't require the 'bells and whistles' version. They would simply like to be able to download/unlock the demo of T2. For this, they are prepared to pay whatever the asling price might be.
2 - Users outside of the USA have absolutely no access to any version of T2, be it in a box or by electronic data transfer. Their complaint is simply "why not?". Again, these prospective Mackie clients are willing to pay the price and they're not looking for any sort of 'free lunch', just the software they were promised by the supplier.
Mackie is a major player in this business, they really could and should have organised a major software release a little better than this. One sure way of turning off prospective clients is to muck them about and rightly, or wrongly, that's how a lot of us feel.
On a personal front, my wallet has been 'out' since the release was (finally) announced. It's not my fault that nobody has wanted to relieve me of my money - I've tried hard enough to give it to them!
Graeme
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
WR - Just because YOU are a reasonable guy doesn't mean that everyone is as clear-headed about it as you are. 
That goes for both 'sides' of the argument.
Regardless of bedside manner, though, doesn't Lee raise an interesting point in his most recent response on this thread? Aren't NFR "owners" really -exactly- the same as brand-spanking-new Mackie/RMS customers? It might not feel like it, because they've joined the community and are sharing their insights with us like any other forum member.
[edit because I hadn't seen the above post]
1 - if you had never heard of the NFR, would you walk into a store, see T2 on the shelf, and ask the salesperson if you could buy a download-only version instead? No, you would either pick it up, or go home and get on the internet to see if download-only was available. When you discovered that it is NOT available, you would simply say, "cool, boxed it is." While there's every reason to WANT a download-only version, there's no reason to EXPECT one. I believe that most people here are simply saying that they WANT one, but there are the occasional users who seem to expect one. And even the ones that just want one aren't always communicating the difference very well.
2 - The answer to the complaint "why not?" is already very clear, even without official word. "Because those channels haven't opened yet." That's it, that's all. It'll be there. I'm Canadian, so it's not like I have access to it, either. I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm willing to admit that the world isn't always perfectly-timed. I suppose Mackie could have waited until they'd filled in every single possible hole and had copies pre-distributed worldwide if they chose to. But they didn't "have" to.
Greg
That goes for both 'sides' of the argument.Regardless of bedside manner, though, doesn't Lee raise an interesting point in his most recent response on this thread? Aren't NFR "owners" really -exactly- the same as brand-spanking-new Mackie/RMS customers? It might not feel like it, because they've joined the community and are sharing their insights with us like any other forum member.
[edit because I hadn't seen the above post]
1 - if you had never heard of the NFR, would you walk into a store, see T2 on the shelf, and ask the salesperson if you could buy a download-only version instead? No, you would either pick it up, or go home and get on the internet to see if download-only was available. When you discovered that it is NOT available, you would simply say, "cool, boxed it is." While there's every reason to WANT a download-only version, there's no reason to EXPECT one. I believe that most people here are simply saying that they WANT one, but there are the occasional users who seem to expect one. And even the ones that just want one aren't always communicating the difference very well.
2 - The answer to the complaint "why not?" is already very clear, even without official word. "Because those channels haven't opened yet." That's it, that's all. It'll be there. I'm Canadian, so it's not like I have access to it, either. I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm willing to admit that the world isn't always perfectly-timed. I suppose Mackie could have waited until they'd filled in every single possible hole and had copies pre-distributed worldwide if they chose to. But they didn't "have" to.
Greg
Last edited by Lunch Money on Sun May 08, 2005 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35500 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
lharless quoth
im just making fun of the NFR whiners. i don't do it often, and usually i feel guilty about making fun of dumbasses, but this time, i got nothing...
Yeah, you got nothing cos you are the dumbass. Most of the people arent whining, they're requesting something. The fact that you cant tell the difference illustrates exactly why you're a dumbass.
anybody that knows who i am in here, knows that im a nice guy. but dudes... you don't deserve anything here.
That's really up to Mackie to decide, isnt it? Not some dumbass.
but i would like to let you know that this forum is about a product that is for sale. for SALE! for a well documented price.
Please show me the 'well-documented' UK retail price.
pay what they're asking, or do without.
And since some dumbass is telling you what to do, dont consider asking politely for some kind of parity.
you got T1(NFR)..for free. SIT DOWN!!
That seems to be your problem, isnt it? Someone got something for nothing, and you're pissed off. So you decide to claim that those people are doing something they're not doing just so you can have a go at them.
if you were to purchase now, this essentially makes you a new buyer, since you didn't pay at the beginning. you don't have an arguement. pay what all new buyers have had to pay...lol.
And conversely
"if you were already using a registered copy, this essentially makes you a an old customer, since you already have a license. so the naysayers don't have an arguement. let folk upgrade like all other registered owners got to do...lol."
Hmmm. Just as compelling as yours, really. If thats the kind of dumbass level you want to argue at.
this aint no hippie commune. there is no free lunch. this aint the thrift shop. this aint a yard sale, so no haggling over prices. this aint no welfare office.
And this isnt haggling over prices. Of course, its not your fault you cant follow an argument closely enough, being a dumbass and all, but please, try a little bit harder.
just because you have a free copy of something that took alot of strife to create does not entitle you to aything beyond the period of enjoyment that you have experienced up until now.
Who said anything about entitlement? Except in your fevered dumbass imagination.
game over
See? Fevered.
what the NFR'ers are asking for is a residual discount, just because they have experienced T1 because of a NFR offer from a previous version...
Wow, did a growen up explain that one to you?
whatever, still asking for free lunch.
Nope, parity aint actually a 'free lunch'. And people aren't necessarily asking for parity. A lot of people are merely asking for a stripped download-only option. But hey
just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user.
That depends on Mackie's definition, not yours.
you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard". it means you got to enjoy what the rest of us had to pay for, for free.
Seems to piss you off a lot, that.
you've already had your free lunch, why do you expect anything more?
Y'know, just cos you keep saying things over and over again doesnt actually mean what you're saying has any basis in fact. But hey, you're a dumbass, you don't know any better, right?
get your wallets out. or get out.
Im not paying again for plugins I already own. If Mackie make a cheaper version of T2 without the plugins available for download, I'll buy it, but I dont need it, I'd be buying it for some small convenience, and for making the NFR available in the first place. If they dont do that I'll continuing using T1. And stay right here, thanks. Even with the presence of you liars, trolls and dumbasses.
im just making fun of the NFR whiners. i don't do it often, and usually i feel guilty about making fun of dumbasses, but this time, i got nothing...
Yeah, you got nothing cos you are the dumbass. Most of the people arent whining, they're requesting something. The fact that you cant tell the difference illustrates exactly why you're a dumbass.
anybody that knows who i am in here, knows that im a nice guy. but dudes... you don't deserve anything here.
That's really up to Mackie to decide, isnt it? Not some dumbass.
but i would like to let you know that this forum is about a product that is for sale. for SALE! for a well documented price.
Please show me the 'well-documented' UK retail price.
pay what they're asking, or do without.
And since some dumbass is telling you what to do, dont consider asking politely for some kind of parity.
you got T1(NFR)..for free. SIT DOWN!!
That seems to be your problem, isnt it? Someone got something for nothing, and you're pissed off. So you decide to claim that those people are doing something they're not doing just so you can have a go at them.
if you were to purchase now, this essentially makes you a new buyer, since you didn't pay at the beginning. you don't have an arguement. pay what all new buyers have had to pay...lol.
And conversely
"if you were already using a registered copy, this essentially makes you a an old customer, since you already have a license. so the naysayers don't have an arguement. let folk upgrade like all other registered owners got to do...lol."
Hmmm. Just as compelling as yours, really. If thats the kind of dumbass level you want to argue at.
this aint no hippie commune. there is no free lunch. this aint the thrift shop. this aint a yard sale, so no haggling over prices. this aint no welfare office.
And this isnt haggling over prices. Of course, its not your fault you cant follow an argument closely enough, being a dumbass and all, but please, try a little bit harder.
just because you have a free copy of something that took alot of strife to create does not entitle you to aything beyond the period of enjoyment that you have experienced up until now.
Who said anything about entitlement? Except in your fevered dumbass imagination.
game over
See? Fevered.
what the NFR'ers are asking for is a residual discount, just because they have experienced T1 because of a NFR offer from a previous version...
Wow, did a growen up explain that one to you?
whatever, still asking for free lunch.
Nope, parity aint actually a 'free lunch'. And people aren't necessarily asking for parity. A lot of people are merely asking for a stripped download-only option. But hey
just because you have T1(NFR) does not translate to full T1 user.
That depends on Mackie's definition, not yours.
you never paid anything. it translates to "lucky bastard". it means you got to enjoy what the rest of us had to pay for, for free.
Seems to piss you off a lot, that.
you've already had your free lunch, why do you expect anything more?
Y'know, just cos you keep saying things over and over again doesnt actually mean what you're saying has any basis in fact. But hey, you're a dumbass, you don't know any better, right?
get your wallets out. or get out.
Im not paying again for plugins I already own. If Mackie make a cheaper version of T2 without the plugins available for download, I'll buy it, but I dont need it, I'd be buying it for some small convenience, and for making the NFR available in the first place. If they dont do that I'll continuing using T1. And stay right here, thanks. Even with the presence of you liars, trolls and dumbasses.
Last edited by whyterabbyt on Sun May 08, 2005 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35500 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Lunch Money quoth WR - Just because YOU are a reasonable guy doesn't mean that everyone is as clear-headed about it as you are. That goes for both 'sides' of the argument.
Who the hell are you calling a 'reasonable guy' you bastard?
Regardless of bedside manner, though, doesn't Lee raise an interesting point in his most recent response on this thread? Aren't NFR "owners" really -exactly- the same as brand-spanking-new Mackie/RMS customers? It might not feel like it, because they've joined the community and are sharing their insights with us like any other forum member.
No, I dont necessarily think they are 'new customers'. It depends whether or not you tie the sense of 'customer' to a financial transaction or something else. Are NFR users allowed to report bugs, ask for help, yada yada.
After all, these giveaways were originally tied to magazines, werent they? A lot of CM's free giveaways, for example, do intrinsically make you a 'customer', since CM basically buy that for you. Does dumbass know that wasnt the case here? Offering something for nothing doesnt necessarily absolve a company of all responsibility towards those who partake of the offer, so, in my mind, no its not automatic that they are not customers.
If Starbucks gives you a free coffee for answering their 'question of the day', and that coffee poisons you, are you a customer? Can you sue them?
Although its really up to Mackie to decide what their (for want of a better term) oblligations are. Not some git on the web who's pissed off that someone might dare to ask for the same deal as him. And Mackie havent quite got everything completely clear at the moment. That happens, its no biggie, and I dont doubt they'll get definitive.
Until then, tell me, why are people really getting so riled at the prospect of a few people saying 'hey,we missed the boat, but is there any chance we can get the same deal in retrospect.' Considering some of the inane bullshit I've been seeing in the Tracktion forums for the past years, it seems pretty trivial in comparison. Helluva lot of real pissy Tracktion users here all of a sudden...
That goes for both 'sides' of the argument.Who the hell are you calling a 'reasonable guy' you bastard?
Regardless of bedside manner, though, doesn't Lee raise an interesting point in his most recent response on this thread? Aren't NFR "owners" really -exactly- the same as brand-spanking-new Mackie/RMS customers? It might not feel like it, because they've joined the community and are sharing their insights with us like any other forum member.
No, I dont necessarily think they are 'new customers'. It depends whether or not you tie the sense of 'customer' to a financial transaction or something else. Are NFR users allowed to report bugs, ask for help, yada yada.
After all, these giveaways were originally tied to magazines, werent they? A lot of CM's free giveaways, for example, do intrinsically make you a 'customer', since CM basically buy that for you. Does dumbass know that wasnt the case here? Offering something for nothing doesnt necessarily absolve a company of all responsibility towards those who partake of the offer, so, in my mind, no its not automatic that they are not customers.
If Starbucks gives you a free coffee for answering their 'question of the day', and that coffee poisons you, are you a customer? Can you sue them?
Although its really up to Mackie to decide what their (for want of a better term) oblligations are. Not some git on the web who's pissed off that someone might dare to ask for the same deal as him. And Mackie havent quite got everything completely clear at the moment. That happens, its no biggie, and I dont doubt they'll get definitive.
Until then, tell me, why are people really getting so riled at the prospect of a few people saying 'hey,we missed the boat, but is there any chance we can get the same deal in retrospect.' Considering some of the inane bullshit I've been seeing in the Tracktion forums for the past years, it seems pretty trivial in comparison. Helluva lot of real pissy Tracktion users here all of a sudden...
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35500 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Of course none of that has to do with the dumbass contingent being unable to tell the difference between a request and an expectation. But hey, thats dumbasses for you.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
-
- Beware the Quoth
- 35500 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
parky quoth
Nope, you can't do that. Didn't someone tell you that the day T2 was released T1 stopped working?
Oh well, I'll just 'make do' with my main hosts then. Life's a bitch, innit.
Nope, you can't do that. Didn't someone tell you that the day T2 was released T1 stopped working?Oh well, I'll just 'make do' with my main hosts then. Life's a bitch, innit.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."