free lunch

[parky]

parky quoth
Nope, you can't do that. Didn't someone tell you that the day T2 was released T1 stopped working?


Oh well, I'll just 'make do' with my main hosts then. Life's a bitch, innit.

Bigtime!

Cheers

[Graeme]

1 - if you had never heard of the NFR, would you walk into a store, see T2 on the shelf, and ask the salesperson if you could buy a download-only version instead? No, you would either pick it up, or go home and get on the internet to see if download-only was available. When you discovered that it is NOT available, you would simply say, "cool, boxed it is."

Errmmm... no, because that's not the way it works for most people. If someone had never heard of the NFR (which would also mean they would likely never have heard of Tracktion) they are not going see it in a shop, think "that looks good" and plonk their money down. What they would do (anyone with any sense, anyway) is go home and do some research, maybe download the demo version and see if it's worth it to them. If, at that point, they find they can only buy retail the decision is entirely theirs.

The NFR was simply a fully working demo - something that Mackie thought would generate enough interest in the forthcoming upgraded version. They're certainly not the first company to have released fully working demos and I doubt they'll be the last - almost always it's software which is slated for a major revision in the fairly short term. In fact it's often an early version of software which has already been released as an upgrade - look at all the stuff computer magazines give away on CD. It's a legitimate and effective marketing tool, but only if it's followed up properly - and that's where much of the beefing lies.

Personally, T1 held little interest for me and although I did d/l the NFR (which I found out about by accident) I never used it for the simple reason that there was no hardware control available and I already own other software which has this.

However, even if I had not got an NFR copy, I'd still not be able to get T2 today. That, for many of us, is the point of the discussion. It has nothing to do with whether we got something for free and everything to do with the fact we can't get something for which we are prepared to pay.

2 - The answer to the complaint "why not?" is already very clear, even without official word. "Because those channels haven't opened yet." That's it, that's all. It'll be there...... I suppose Mackie could have waited until they'd filled in every single possible hole and had copies pre-distributed worldwide if they chose to. But they didn't "have" to.

No, they didn't 'have to' - but imagine how much extra loyalty they would have generated had they done so. I mean, it's not even as though they have responded to any of this stuff by announcing a time scale for release outside the USA. Without this essential information, every day which passes merely serves to disenchant the potential clients which Mackie fought so hard to secure by releasing the NFR version. We can only put up with the dreaded hiss for so long .

My 'local' - i.e. 700 Km from here, what a joke - Mackie agent (who I was asked to contact) hadn't even heard of T2!! How's that for 'organisation?

I've said this before and I'll say it again - their Marketing was first class, but their Public Relations are bad. All the good work done by the first is being rapidly unravelled by the second.

[whyterabbyt]

Bugger; I thought I'd try and trick my disabled Tracktion by running my system clock back a few months, but all of a sudden KVR was full of posts by RonC saying "is it ready yet, it'll be crap, I dont want it, it'll be too expensive is it ready yet". Real freaky.

[MADatGOD]

People keep bringing up the issue of "paying for extra plugins they don't need". It seems to me that the price of T2 is $150 and the plugins are simply a bonus... an incentive... thrown in for free. The upgrade path for paid T1 owners has nothing to do with the retail price of T2. Personally, I thought T1 was a steal at $80, and would have still considered it a great bargain at twice that, with or without plugins. Same goes for T2.

With that in mind, providing a no-plugin download option, at $120, for the convenience of those NFR users for whom availability or overpricing is a problem because of their location, doesn't seem like an unreasonable request and would probably be a smart move on Mackie's part IMO.

[pHz]

Although its really up to Mackie to decide what their (for want of a better term) oblligations are. Not some git on the web who's pissed off that he missed the boat and cant now get the same deal as users of a full tracktion license. And Mackie havent quite got everything completely clear at the moment. That happens, its no biggie, and I dont doubt they'll get definitive.

And im quite sure its incorrect to start a sentence with 'and' ...

slainte rob

[whyterabbyt]

pHz quoth
And im quite sure its incorrect to start a sentence with 'and'

Thus reinforcing the stereotype that most teachers have an appalling grasp of what is and is not acceptable English usage.

[whyterabbyt]

MADatGOD quoth People keep bringing up the issue of "paying for extra plugins they don't need". It seems to me that the price of T2 is $150 and the plugins are simply a bonus... an incentive... thrown in for free. The upgrade path for paid T1 owners has nothing to do with the retail price of T2. Personally, I thought T1 was a steal at $80, and would have still considered it a great bargain at twice that, with or without plugins. Same goes for T2.

Now that is actually a good point, although, realistically you have to assume that the cost of the plugins to Mackie is figured in that figure somehow. But yes, its not a given that the RRP is for anything other than the cost of Tracktion2, and that the extra plugins are freebies.

(So the guys using the rebate coupon are the ones gettng the 'free lunch', huh? Hmmmm )

And if I can get it for $150 instead of £150, I'll make do with them thar duplicates, happily.

[pHz]

pHz quoth
And im quite sure its incorrect to start a sentence with 'and'
Thus reinforcing the stereotype that most teachers have an appalling grasp of what is and is not acceptable English usage.

hey ... im an art teacher for f**ks sake ... youre lucky i can manage to string together even a half-coherent sentence ..

slainte rob

[whyterabbyt]

Good point. Criminal that you learned to type, though.

[pHz]

monkeys and typewriters ... i fumble about with the mouse to copy and paste the messages that seem to make sense ...

slainte rob

[audiobot202]

I'm sick of hearing 'NFR' posted all about here. Lets just forget it shall we? This is about offering T2 online sans plugins so that any new and curious customer can download and buy it. MOney goes in their pockets, customer is happy, end of story.
If I wantesd it I'd be prepared to pay whatever they wanted. It's not even about pricing. If they announced tomorrow that T2 is now available and purchasable online for anyone at $180, I'm sure there will be many interested buyers lining up to get it. I personally don't care about the plugins. This is really just about availability and growing a new product in a global market.

[MADatGOD]

I'm sick of hearing 'NFR' posted all about here. Lets just forget it shall we?

Hold your breath, I'm certain that will happen any moment now;)

[Lunch Money]

Lunch Money quoth WR - Just because YOU are a reasonable guy doesn't mean that everyone is as clear-headed about it as you are. That goes for both 'sides' of the argument.

Who the hell are you calling a 'reasonable guy' you bastard?

Did I say "reasonable"? Crap, I meant "<space reserved for future replacement with a word that sounds similar but is actually an insult>."

No, I dont necessarily think they are 'new customers'. It depends whether or not you tie the sense of 'customer' to a financial transaction or something else. Are NFR users allowed to report bugs, ask for help, yada yada.

Given the nature of the company (ie. they're not a charitable organization) and the fact that the NFR was distributed *specifically* to entice new customers into giving Tracktion a true whirl, then yes, I think a financial transaction was required for them to move from being 'lucky bastards' (thanks, Lee) to customers. The ability to report bugs and ask for help isn't representative of their status as customers, but demonstrates their status as USERS. That's different. And at the end of the day, the two sort of cancel each other out. They help RMS by reporting bugs, RMS continues to offer support that they're not obligated to offer. Actually, I'm not even sure that they DO support the NFR, but if they don't, at that point in time the user can choose to say, "OK, you don't help me, I can't help you anymore. No bug reports."

After all, these giveaways were originally tied to magazines, werent they? A lot of CM's free giveaways, for example, do intrinsically make you a 'customer', since CM basically buy that for you. Does dumbass know that wasnt the case here? Offering something for nothing doesnt necessarily absolve a company of all responsibility towards those who partake of the offer, so, in my mind, no its not automatic that they are not customers.

CM's 'proprietary' giveaways are commissioned by the magazine and then sold with the magazine. The 'support' provided by the magazine and/or software company depends entirely upon the contract drawn up at the time of the commission. The DS-404 contract included a bugfix but no further updates from Muon, for example. We could ask Kriminal who is responsible for the support on his recent giveaway.

If Starbucks gives you a free coffee for answering their 'question of the day', and that coffee poisons you, are you a customer? Can you sue them?

It would depend on the source of the poison. I think if it was proven that Bob the Barista discretely poisoned you because he was jealous of your VSTi collection, that you'd have a criminal case against Bob and not against Starbuck's. If, on the other hand, in the stages leading to the distribution of the coffee, Starbucks' system of QC failed to detect a poisonous shipment of coffee, then you could probably sue Starbucks. Wait. What was the point again?

Yes-- SOMEBODY (Starbucks or otherwise) is responsible for your being poisoned, regardless of whether the coffee was free. But that's a weak analogy, because it involves criminal activity. A giveaway of free software is hardly criminal. If RMS knowingly distributed an NFR of Tracktion that deleted the hard drive upon installation, THEN you could sue them.

Back to Starbucks-- You get a free sample as you walk in one day. They want you to test their new "Strawberry Mocha Half-Caf no-foam Soy latte" You drink the free sample and decide that it's good. Are they obligated to give you a discount because you partook in and enjoyed the freebie? If you're lucky, they will have given you a coupon to buy your first one at a discount, mind you. But that's if they had chosen to.

Giving people a free product doesn't obligate them to follow through on your response to that product. They've put the ball in your court, and it's entirely your choice to become a customer or not.

Although its really up to Mackie to decide what their (for want of a better term) oblligations are. Not some git on the web who's pissed off that someone might dare to ask for the same deal as him.

Exactly. And Mackie seems to have already made this decision, which is why *I* at least (I can't speak for anyone else) am confused by the fact that it's still even being debated. I know that the majority of NFR users were simply making a request, and I don't fault them for that. I just don't see how it could have become a debate about Mackie's obligations. As you say, it's their choice to make.

And Mackie havent quite got everything completely clear at the moment. That happens, its no biggie, and I dont doubt they'll get definitive.

True, and I too am waiting for information on international customers. I also don't doubt that the information will eventually be available. There ARE people who have been extra-hasty to condemn, though, as if they've been completely shut down when in fact it's just that the information just isn't available yet. That's different than being excluded or insulted.

Until then, tell me, why are people really getting so riled at the prospect of a few people saying 'hey,we missed the boat, but is there any chance we can get the same deal in retrospect.' Considering some of the inane bullshit I've been seeing in the Tracktion forums for the past years, it seems pretty trivial in comparison. Helluva lot of real pissy Tracktion users here all of a sudden...

True, true. I agree that simply asking does nobody any harm. The reason people get pissy, though, is because nobody from Mackie seems to be in a position to give the answers to the questions. So when other users (like me) respond, we can only go by what we believe makes sense. Hence, when we can't actually speak for Mackie/RMS, we have to say things like, "It doesn't make sense to expect more than what you're getting." And that's when the debates start. To me, "It doesn't make sense to expect more" is just as reasonable an opinion as "Well, we can at least ask, no harm done" so there is obviously some sort of pissiness coming from the other direction, too. SOME (not even the majority!) NFR customers agreed with such statements without getting pissy, but others got defensive.

You know how it is...

Greg

[audiobot202]

Yes, but didn't Starbucks knowingly employ the dodgy and jealous Barista?

Geez..my brain hurts from all this small text. Expectations and gripes notwithstanding, I think the original and pretty fair request for ANY (not just NFR) new customers to have access to a purchasable download at a price which is fair....well, I think it's a pretty clear statement. I've said before, I'll watch with interest what they do. I'm allowed to have an opinion on how they market or work their PR.
But right now, I'm going to bed to dream of new and more economically accessible host sequencers

[Lunch Money]

1 - if you had never heard of the NFR, would you walk into a store, see T2 on the shelf, and ask the salesperson if you could buy a download-only version instead? No, you would either pick it up, or go home and get on the internet to see if download-only was available. When you discovered that it is NOT available, you would simply say, "cool, boxed it is."

Errmmm... no, because that's not the way it works for most people. If someone had never heard of the NFR (which would also mean they would likely never have heard of Tracktion) they are not going see it in a shop, think "that looks good" and plonk their money down.

We live in different worlds. Some people WOULD buy it at the shop with a convincing salesperson and perhaps a floor demo. Not everyone is as broke as me, and I've seen people plunk thousands of dollars down on impulse purchases, never mind a 'mere' (hey, it's a lot of money to me, too, I'm just drawing a comparison) $150.

It also doesn't make sense to say they wouldn't have heard of Tracktion without the NFR. In my example, they see a T2 retail box in the store. Either they've seen a magazine ad (there have been many, and I think they've been very effective!) or they simply saw it while they were browsing. I think you'll discover that we're a very specialized group of people in the way we approach our software, here at KvR. The rest of the world still responds more to traditional marketing (magazines) and normal channels (retail). Back to the point-- in no way in my example is seeing T2 on a shelf or going looking for it related to the NFR.

What they would do (anyone with any sense, anyway) is go home and do some research, maybe download the demo version and see if it's worth it to them. If, at that point, they find they can only buy retail the decision is entirely theirs.

I also agreed that people should/would go online. You're right that they should download the demo if available, but that doesn't explain all the Cubase customers out there. No Cubase demo. No Logic demo either, I don't think. So, if they liked what they saw online, found out it was retail only, then they'd go back to the store if they were still interested.

The NFR was simply a fully working demo - something that Mackie thought would generate enough interest in the forthcoming upgraded version. They're certainly not the first company to have released fully working demos and I doubt they'll be the last...It's a legitimate and effective marketing tool, but only if it's followed up properly - and that's where much of the beefing lies.

Yes, the follow-up could have been better.

However, even if I had not got an NFR copy, I'd still not be able to get T2 today. That, for many of us, is the point of the discussion. It has nothing to do with whether we got something for free and everything to do with the fact we can't get something for which we are prepared to pay.

I can't buy it yet, either.

No, they didn't 'have to' - but imagine how much extra loyalty they would have generated had they done so. I mean, it's not even as though they have responded to any of this stuff by announcing a time scale for release outside the USA. Without this essential information, every day which passes merely serves to disenchant the potential clients which Mackie fought so hard to secure by releasing the NFR version. We can only put up with the dreaded hiss for so long .

Only some of the NFR users, though. Other people who are not KvR members (being a member here is evidence of a certain mindset-- it's not surprising that many of us here like FAST access to information and in this case to a new product) aren't necessarily as reactionary or impatient.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - their Marketing was first class, but their Public Relations are bad. All the good work done by the first is being rapidly unravelled by the second.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but I agree that the PR needs improvement. Beno can't do it all alone, and isn't always given the information we're requesting. Plus, isn't he actually an engineer?