Recordings issues, latency, ASIO monitoring, etc

[headquest]

Hi everyone! Having bought the T2 download version I attempted this week to record eleven songs for a CD of backing tracks (children's songs) for a paying client. The client is a school that I had previously persuaded to invest in Tracktion, so it was impolrtant to do this work using Tracktion and present it as archive files so that the vocals can be added within the school. Limited to using Tracktion rather than Live and Audition I braced myself for what I hoped would be a positive experience after some of my well-[known recent doubts.

Unfortunately I hit some real problems though, and am hoping that some of the Tracktion gurus here can help me out! Basically I am first and foremost a musician, not a sound engineer, and I'm sure the dificulties I had are due to user error, the complexity of Tracktion, etc, rather than issues with Tracktion itself But before anyone replies RTFM, I have looked through both the PDF documents in detail and not found a solution

Also I should just mention that I did LOTS of audio recording using T1 and love it. I had no problems at all recording my keyboard in T1.

There were basically 2 problems, which I expect are related:

PROBLEM ONE had to do with latency and using ADIO Direct Mode. When I attempted to record there was an "Elvis Effect" amount of Delay introduced because of the latency setting I had. Because I had uninstalled T1 prior to installing T2, my settings had gone askew, and ASIO Direct Mode was not checked on the Settings Page. Failing to realise this I experimented with adjusting the "Time Adjust" settings on the Edit page. This seemed to cure the problem for a while... but then inexplicably the issue returned and I gave up for the night...

The next evening I had another go. Somebody had helpfully suggested on another thread that I toggle the ASIO Direct Mode button to see if it helped... and it did. I reset Time Adjust to zero. Everything worked just fine ...

...until the third session. On the third evening, the "Elvis Effect" returned, and no amount of ASIO Direct Mode button toggling solved it. Nor did adjusting the Time Adjust button yield any results.

PROBLEM TWO was, I'm sure related. I found that there were serious clicks, pops, audio drop outs, and jumps throughout the recording process. Every time this happened, I had to re-record the song/part to get a decent take. Because I was simply recording myself using a keyboard, this was not a major embarassment, but obviously if other musicians had been involved it would have been deeply annoying to everyone! As it was, I simply kept re-recording parts until all eleven songs were done, which resulted in a number of VERY late nights (2 and 3am).

Now my guess is that Problem 2 is caused by having the audio buffer/latency settings set too low/small. Alongside this, the sluggish GUI seemed to be causeing some CPU spikes (even though I wasn't using any plugins/etc during the recording process) and I think these may have been related to the recording glitches too.

Problem One necessitated trying to get away with low latency settings, but I tried a variety of different buffer settings to try and find a balance that was workable. While I ultimately got the job done, it took a LOT longer than if I had simply recorded in Ableton Live or Adobe Audition, neither of which has ever given me any recording problems of this kind, and both of which are as simple to use as simply hitting the record button and playing!

So where the client doesn't specifiy using Tracktion I wouldn;t use it again until I can sort out where I am going wrong here. I have not picked up from other threads that anyone else is having particular problems getting ASIO direct Mode to work, or that they are having Latency issues, so I'm guessing that I'm doing something wrong somewhere

Also, just to clarify, I am not using my M-Audio firewire Ozone interface (which is in my "studio") but my trusty old Edirol UA-20 USB interface (which is in my music teaching room)... mostly because of laziness!

Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated

[djsubject]

i dont have a m audio card but asio direct is not it, (i dont know what name would come up in the list for the m audio input (can someone else post that here if thay know it)

once you select your correct maudio device & set the buffer to about 10ms (512 samples = 12ms ) this should fix the laitency & poping you are experinceing

Subject

[headquest]

Thanks mate. Like I said though, I was using my old Edirol card on this occasion (I mostly use it on my laptop for recording in the music room, even though the Ozonic is obviously better

I used a range of buffer sizes to see if I could improve things, ranging from 256 samples up to about five times that amount. I could not find a balance that gave me a workable latency but without clicks/pops/stutters.

In Live and Audition, without changing any settings, I was getting zero latency direct monitoring without any of these issues. Hence my confusion

[audiobot202]

Hey Headquest...I've found similar problems while recording. There is a sluggish GUI problem and pops and glitches even when I move clips around while it plays. This did not happen in T1. My ASIO settings do seem to be ok though, but for some reason I've had to reinstall the demo because it kept telling me the installation had become corrupt.

[headquest]

Hey Headquest...I've found similar problems while recording. There is a sluggish GUI problem and pops and glitches even when I move clips around while it plays. This did not happen in T1. My ASIO settings do seem to be ok though, but for some reason I've had to reinstall the demo because it kept telling me the installation had become corrupt.

Hey!

So do you think that the clicks/pops/drops/glitches are all related to the GUI "issue"? That is depressing, because there's no "quick fix" button. I just hope that if the GUI is making audio recording impossible (at least for some of us) then it will be top priority for any update release.

How about Latency? are you experiencing this problem too? I know that I did not have this in T1...

[headquest]

[audiobot202]

Hey man....well, I do know that certain AGP graphics cards will interfere with sound cards and it's possible that a graphically rich interface will cause some zipper noise or glitches. That is a possibility. I haven't yet experienced any latency though.
I do find, in general, that the GUI response in T2 is slower than T1. It is quite noticeable for me in the settings page especially.

Steve

[valley]

When you say delay, do you mean there is literally a slap-back echo?

IF so, something is miscofigured somewhere. Even with unusably high latency, you should not hear any echo, unless you have porcessed, *and* live signal leaving your audio device. The only way this can happen is if the audio device supports zero latency montoring and you have it enabled.

The first thing to do is to eliminate the dry (non Tracktion generated) signal.

Once the delay is gone, you need to work out what is causing the dropouts.

1) try upping the latency a little to start with (you shouldn't need to go above 15ms unless it is a USB audio device).
2) If the audio is being recorded into an edit that already has a number of audio tracks playing - freeze them to elimiate load off of the hard drive.
3) Try disabling the scroll mode to stop screen redraws occurring. If Screen updates *are* the culprit then reducing the amount of screen activity is a good place to start. In addition, you *may* find that minimizing the Tracktion window helps (just remember to disable the stop audio engine when minimized option.

[headquest]

Hi valley. Thanks for the advice

When you say delay, do you mean there is literally a slap-back echo?

Yes, basically. So resulting the classic Elvis sound where the echo acts as an enormous chorus effect!

IF so, something is miscofigured somewhere.

Yep, that's what I'm thinking. i just can't locate it

Even with unusably high latency, you should not hear any echo, unless you have porcessed, *and* live signal leaving your audio device. The only way this can happen is if the audio device supports zero latency montoring and you have it enabled.

OK, so I do have direct monitoring enabled on the Edirol soundcard. This is the setting that I always have on, and it never caused problems in T1 (or in Live or Audition). Do you think this could be the problem though? If so, should I simply turn it direct monitoring off on the soundcard and put up with whatever latency is then necessary?

Once the delay is gone, you need to work out what is causing the dropouts.

1) try upping the latency a little to start with (you shouldn't need to go above 15ms unless it is a USB audio device).
2) If the audio is being recorded into an edit that already has a number of audio tracks playing - freeze them to elimiate load off of the hard drive.

Is it worth trying this even though I have no effects in action when recording?

3) Try disabling the scroll mode to stop screen redraws occurring. If Screen updates *are* the culprit then reducing the amount of screen activity is a good place to start. In addition, you *may* find that minimizing the Tracktion window helps (just remember to disable the stop audio engine when minimized option.

I've not tried that idea, so I'll give it a go.

Thanks again for your help

[valley]

Hi valley. Thanks for the advice

When you say delay, do you mean there is literally a slap-back echo?

Yes, basically. So resulting the classic Elvis sound where the echo acts as an enormous chorus effect!

If you get your latency low enough it'll act like a phaser instead.

OK, so I do have direct monitoring enabled on the Edirol soundcard. This is the setting that I always have on, and it never caused problems in T1 (or in Live or Audition). Do you think this could be the problem though? If so, should I simply turn it direct monitoring off on the soundcard and put up with whatever latency is then necessary?

It is the problem. Think of it like this:

With zero latency monitoring active, audio received be your card will be streamed directly to the output. It'll reach the outputs typically less than a millisecond later.

In addition to this, the input audio will also be sent to the ASIO drivers where it will be buffered (delayed) for a period of time equal to your ASIO latency. This will typically be a period of ~10ms.

At this point the second stream will reach Tracktion. Hopefully you have no latency inducing plugs active, so it will leave pretty much immediately. Only at this point your ASIO drivers will buffer the sound once more for another ASIO latency period.

So about 20ms or more after the direct signal leaves your soundcard, the ASIO processed sound will follow it creating a *very* close echo. What you'll hear depends on the size of the ASIO buffer, and will range from phasing, via chorus, to slapback echo.

Not good.

It doesn't matter whether you disable the direct output, or you disable audio out from Tracktion (simply mute the master out), as long as you mute one of them.

(If your latency is large of course, you'll porbably want to mute Tracktion and leave the direct monitoring active).

Is it worth trying this even though I have no effects in action when recording?

If a number of tracks are being streamed from your hard disc, yes.

[headquest]

Thanks for the explanation and advice. I'll have another try recording some stuff in Tracktion later on and put this all into practice. If there are any further issues of course I'll get back to you!

Thanks for your time

[valley]

NP.

[headquest]

Hey valley!

Just thought you'd like to know that the latency issue seems to be solved with various amounts of tweaking and toggling of buttons . I followed all your advice, which was real helpful of you.

The click/pop situation is still happening though, and I suspect that audiobot may be right in pointing to the GUI issue as the cause Perhaps I need to change the settings on my graphics card - might that help?

Anyway, the backing tracks are recorded at my end, and the school where the singing will be recorded is on Tracktion 1.6 still at present, so there should be no problems at all in getting the project done and dusted!

By the way, the guy who wrote these "Times Tables" songs did a really good job of it - very catchy and I'm sure they'll help the little ones learn their mental maths! The CD will contain three versions: Singing/backing, Instrumental/backing, and just backing. So schools will find that very useful. It's going out commercially via educational suppliers to primary schools in UK later in the autumn (from the same company that publish my keybaord tutor books), and I think it should do well with the marketing grunt that is behind it

Anyway, thanks again for helping me get this sorted. I'll mention you on the sleeve if I can

[chico.co.uk]

By the way, the guy who wrote these "Times Tables" songs did a really good job of it - very catchy and I'm sure they'll help the little ones learn their mental maths! The CD will contain three versions: Singing/backing, Instrumental/backing, and just backing. So schools will find that very useful. It's going out commercially via educational suppliers to primary schools in UK later in the autumn (from the same company that publish my keybaord tutor books), and I think it should do well with the marketing grunt that is behind it

There was a guy being interviewed on local radio near us about a month ago who has just released a cd of exactly this kind of thing. They had some kids on being interviewed and demonstrating how it helped them remember their times tables as they sung along. Each of the songs had a different style, the kids liked "the r&b one" the best.

They sounded f**king awful, i have to say, but seemed to work ...

Not saying this was your tunes, just that it's been done recently. Doubt anything would better "Three is the magic number" though

[headquest]

Not ours, no! But the guy doing the project knows there's lots of this stuff out there. It's such a big market that there seems to be plenty of room for more!!