Sure, we'll do - but I thought you were a leightweight?Klemperer wrote: hey we have to drink some beer this year, Jens - I reached 500 posts!
What host for a beginner?
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
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- KVRAF
- 3002 posts since 24 Nov, 2003 from Heidelberg&Hamburg
jens wrote:Sure, we'll do - but I thought you were a leightweight?Klemperer wrote: hey we have to drink some beer this year, Jens - I reached 500 posts!
heavyweight! Didn't I get the FULL version with all the soundfonts and 700MB from this O.... -
- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
i.e. 'lightweight': ich dachte Du verträgst nix...
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
b.t.w.: Orion ist Schaise...
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
Klemperer wrote:Datt stimmt. One beer and I can walk into the Elbe, two and I run into a car.jens wrote:i.e. 'lightweight': ich dachte Du verträgst nix...
then for best rather Clausthaler I'd say...
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
I have Tracktion 2 and Live 4, and I would definitely recommend Live over Tracktion. Although the interface of Tracktion is possibly clearer to a complete newcomer, you quickly find that you need to get bogged down in settings elsewhere.
Both have an easy learning curve, but having spent a few hours learning the basics, I actually find Live 4 SIGNIFICANTLY easier in use than Tracktion. In terms of learning the basics, Live 4 has on screen beginner tutorials to get you started. With Tracktion you need to consult the PDF manual (or book if you are able to buy the boxed version where you live.)
Lastly, Tracktion is heavy laden with bugs and issues at present. Although the overall concept of Tracktion is fantastic, a glance over on the user forum will alert you to the very serious problems that users are grappling with at present
Both have an easy learning curve, but having spent a few hours learning the basics, I actually find Live 4 SIGNIFICANTLY easier in use than Tracktion. In terms of learning the basics, Live 4 has on screen beginner tutorials to get you started. With Tracktion you need to consult the PDF manual (or book if you are able to buy the boxed version where you live.)
Lastly, Tracktion is heavy laden with bugs and issues at present. Although the overall concept of Tracktion is fantastic, a glance over on the user forum will alert you to the very serious problems that users are grappling with at present
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I'll have to disagree with headquest, which won't surprise him. Not about his recommendation per se, but because of the reasoning:
There's no Ableton forum to hear the whining of their users, is all. A forum is often used for support, and so it's no surprise that there are issues being encountered by people. It's false logic to point to a company's forum (whether it's officially the "support" forum or not, this IS the forum people come to for support) as evidence of its flaws.
I've been using T2 since it was in beta-- from the group of testers, I was one of the "workaday" kind of users... while I'm an experienced recording musician in terms of personal enjoyment, I don't have a "professional" setup or "professional" needs. Tracktion 2 has been stable for me, and I haven't encountered any issues that are stopping my ability to make songs using primarily audio but with 2-3 'normal' (ie. no program changes or esoteric functions) MIDI tracks as well.
We could argue all day about whether issues are deal-breakers or not, and there would be good points made on both sides. But one thing I have to take issue with is the claim that you'll get bogged down in settings, which is simply wrong. Assuming you have installed your soundcard already, you simply select it from your list of available options. If it's your only card, its ASIO mode will be selected by default, even. What settings are there for a beginner to get bogged down in?
Live IS pretty easy to wrap your head around, though, and it offers instant amounts of fun. At the end of the day, though, I found that while I could mess around with Live easily (and even intuitively!), I could not conceive of and complete a complete song from beginning to end using Live's methodologies. Which is no surprise considering the program is called, "Live," clearly a choice made due to its amazing power at live and real-time modification of compositions.
Greg
Not about his recommendation per se, but because of the reasoning:There's no Ableton forum to hear the whining of their users, is all. A forum is often used for support, and so it's no surprise that there are issues being encountered by people. It's false logic to point to a company's forum (whether it's officially the "support" forum or not, this IS the forum people come to for support) as evidence of its flaws.
I've been using T2 since it was in beta-- from the group of testers, I was one of the "workaday" kind of users... while I'm an experienced recording musician in terms of personal enjoyment, I don't have a "professional" setup or "professional" needs. Tracktion 2 has been stable for me, and I haven't encountered any issues that are stopping my ability to make songs using primarily audio but with 2-3 'normal' (ie. no program changes or esoteric functions) MIDI tracks as well.
We could argue all day about whether issues are deal-breakers or not, and there would be good points made on both sides. But one thing I have to take issue with is the claim that you'll get bogged down in settings, which is simply wrong. Assuming you have installed your soundcard already, you simply select it from your list of available options. If it's your only card, its ASIO mode will be selected by default, even. What settings are there for a beginner to get bogged down in?
Live IS pretty easy to wrap your head around, though, and it offers instant amounts of fun. At the end of the day, though, I found that while I could mess around with Live easily (and even intuitively!), I could not conceive of and complete a complete song from beginning to end using Live's methodologies. Which is no surprise considering the program is called, "Live," clearly a choice made due to its amazing power at live and real-time modification of compositions.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Lunch Money wrote:I'll have to disagree with headquest, which won't surprise him.
No, no surprise But no offense taken either 
Actually there is an Ableton support forum which does have a certain amount of whining on itThere's no Ableton forum to hear the whining of their users, is all.
, here :http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=forum
...so you rumbled me!! It's a very dair point, too. Although I think it partly has to do with proximity of the release. WHat I mean is, the Ableton forum was awash with what you call "whining" a few months ago, nearer the release. Subsequently they sorted out the issues that users raised. With T2 just out, and with only limited beta testing, it's no surprise that ordinary users like me are finding and reporting problems. Hopefully this will die away as Mackie get on with resolving issues as Ableton did.
Didn't we try that onceWe could argue all day about whether issues are deal-breakers or not, and there would be good points made on both sides.
I'm speaking from my personal experience again on this one. I have had tremendous problems getting audio recording without latency, using ASIO direct mode, time adjust, etc, reported in this thread:But one thing I have to take issue with is the claim that you'll get bogged down in settings, which is simply wrong. Assuming you have installed your soundcard already, you simply select it from your list of available options. If it's your only card, its ASIO mode will be selected by default, even. What settings are there for a beginner to get bogged down in?
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... a629330bb2
Two of my students have done the online upgrade, and both of them are having serious problems too.
I've never had these problems recording in Live. You don't even need to drag the audio input icon into place... simply hit record in the arrange view and off you go
That's to do with working methods, as we've discussed before.Live IS pretty easy to wrap your head around, though, and it offers instant amounts of fun. At the end of the day, though, I found that while I could mess around with Live easily (and even intuitively!), I could not conceive of and complete a complete song from beginning to end using Live's methodologies. Which is no surprise considering the program is called, "Live," clearly a choice made due to its amazing power at live and real-time modification of compositions.
Greg
I recently completed a 50-minute album of material using Ableton Live as the only host throughout
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Hey-o for agreeing about the forum thing. 
That's good rhetoric-- give an inch and I won't always try to take a yard. <laff>
In terms of your album's completion, congrats! It IS subjective, though, which is why I had to say, "I find..." I know of at least 2 other users that were the same. Live had lots of instant gratification and seemed innovative, and yet at the end of the day no songs were being completed. Clearly there will be exceptions. 
I actually rarely hear of people posting songs here that were recorded in Live, but I admit that's not exactly compelling evidence.
In terms of setup: sorry to hear you've had problems. My experience has been that I load Tracktion and it works. Ditto for my friend who uses a Laptop and a US-122, and ditto for my dad who uses on-board sound and ASIO4ALL.
Greg
That's good rhetoric-- give an inch and I won't always try to take a yard. <laff>In terms of your album's completion, congrats! It IS subjective, though, which is why I had to say, "I find..."
I know of at least 2 other users that were the same. Live had lots of instant gratification and seemed innovative, and yet at the end of the day no songs were being completed. Clearly there will be exceptions. I actually rarely hear of people posting songs here that were recorded in Live, but I admit that's not exactly compelling evidence.In terms of setup: sorry to hear you've had problems. My experience has been that I load Tracktion and it works. Ditto for my friend who uses a Laptop and a US-122, and ditto for my dad who uses on-board sound and ASIO4ALL.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
Huh?? Tracktion has been running ultra-stable on my system for almost 2 years. "Laden with bugs and issues" could not be further from the truth.headquest wrote:
Lastly, Tracktion is heavy laden with bugs and issues at present.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Cheers, Greg
The "completing a track" thing is really about linear vs. pattern based work, I think. Being classically trained, I fully get where you are coming from in prefering linear. I've come to the pattern thing more recently myself, but I am enjoying it! And I find Live's arrangement view pretty good for linear work when I'm there.
Regarding my problems here... I think it's a mixure of bad luck, user error on my part... and a few imperfections in T2. But I'm not giving up on it just yet!
The "completing a track" thing is really about linear vs. pattern based work, I think. Being classically trained, I fully get where you are coming from in prefering linear. I've come to the pattern thing more recently myself, but I am enjoying it! And I find Live's arrangement view pretty good for linear work when I'm there.
Regarding my problems here... I think it's a mixure of bad luck, user error on my part... and a few imperfections in T2. But I'm not giving up on it just yet!
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
50 minutes? Thats it?headquest wrote:
I recently completed a 50-minute album of material using Ableton Live as the only host throughout
I'm on my 141st project with Tracktion of which I've sold 80. So if each album has 12 songs, I've basically done 6.6 whole albums. With only 1 crash (which wasnt even Tracktions fault but more SampleTank1 acting up
). 50 minutes
.