Aloha, Buenos Dias, Good morning
Just trying something I've not tried before in Tracktion, and assumed would be quite easy, but hitting a few hurdles. Basically I have a track with an acoustic guitar and vocals which is a really good take, but wasn't played to a click track, and sounds all the better for it. So i thought I'd create a tempo map to add some midi drums over the top.
So my thinking was, I'll tap along with the audio track, creating a midi track of single hits. I'll then select a few bars (8, 12 or 16 beats depending on how much it drifts) and set that section to that tempo, and progress through the song doing that. Once it's sorted tempo wise, i'll drop the real drum loops over the top. Sounds reasonable, no?
Anyway, tried this, and I can only find an option to set the tempo of the entire edit to the marked section, not insert a tempo change at the cursor with the new tempo. Not ideal, but I can work around that by using the "set the tempo of the edit" feature to tell me what tempo that section would be, then manually insert a tempo change there etc. Problem with that is that inserting the tempo change buggers up where the rest of the midi clips are, they rearrange on screen so they are no longer above the corresponding beats of the audio track.
So how does people do this in Tracktion? How do you manually tempo map a song to add midi drums to an audio take that wasn't played to a click?
Answers on a postcard please, to puzzled of chicoland.
Ta
Want techniques for creating a tempo map
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- KVRAF
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Two slight changes to your method:
1. Insert the tempo change first, and then use the 'auto tempo' feature..
2. Untick the 'remap clip positions when tempo is changed' option in the timecode menu.
1. Insert the tempo change first, and then use the 'auto tempo' feature..
2. Untick the 'remap clip positions when tempo is changed' option in the timecode menu.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Ok, finding quite a few bugs in the tempo changing features. Dunno if i'm still a beta tester or not, but as i've not got access to that forum maybe someone can confirm whether these have been logged. Anyway ...
There's an option for "remap clip positions when tempo is changed" under the Timecode sections on the edit screen. Try this:
1) Create a 2 bar loop, start at bar 2 of the edit, with a midi note on each half beat. So this clip runs over bar 2, 3 and 4. There's 8 notes in a bar.
2) Use M to set the in and out points to the edges of this clip.
3) Turn off "remap clip positions" and then change the tempo of the edit. The bar lines move around the clip, and the clip is still selected with the in and out points around the clip.
4) Use ctrl+z to go back to step 2. Now turn on "remap clip positions" and change the tempo of the edit. The marked clip stays over bars 2, 3 + 4 at the new tempo, and the clip is still marked.
5) Now hit ctrl+z again to try to go back to step 2. The tempo changes back, and the clip moves, but the in and out points don't. They no longer mark the points you were marking. That's bug number one.
6) Use M to set the in and out points again properly, then split the clip at bar 3. You now have a 1 bar clip from bar 2 to 3, and another 1 bar clip from bar 3 to 4.
7) Now with "remap clip positions" turned off, drop the tempo down by about 40 bpm or so. The clips resize themselves so they're still sitting next to each other, but neither of them now contain 8 notes, they contain about 6 each. Bug number 2?
So i get weird results in both settings, either remap turned on or off, and neither setting will allow you to create a manual tempo map.
Can anyone confirm, or offer any pointers on how to work around this?
Cheers
chico
There's an option for "remap clip positions when tempo is changed" under the Timecode sections on the edit screen. Try this:
1) Create a 2 bar loop, start at bar 2 of the edit, with a midi note on each half beat. So this clip runs over bar 2, 3 and 4. There's 8 notes in a bar.
2) Use M to set the in and out points to the edges of this clip.
3) Turn off "remap clip positions" and then change the tempo of the edit. The bar lines move around the clip, and the clip is still selected with the in and out points around the clip.
4) Use ctrl+z to go back to step 2. Now turn on "remap clip positions" and change the tempo of the edit. The marked clip stays over bars 2, 3 + 4 at the new tempo, and the clip is still marked.
5) Now hit ctrl+z again to try to go back to step 2. The tempo changes back, and the clip moves, but the in and out points don't. They no longer mark the points you were marking. That's bug number one.
6) Use M to set the in and out points again properly, then split the clip at bar 3. You now have a 1 bar clip from bar 2 to 3, and another 1 bar clip from bar 3 to 4.
7) Now with "remap clip positions" turned off, drop the tempo down by about 40 bpm or so. The clips resize themselves so they're still sitting next to each other, but neither of them now contain 8 notes, they contain about 6 each. Bug number 2?
So i get weird results in both settings, either remap turned on or off, and neither setting will allow you to create a manual tempo map.
Can anyone confirm, or offer any pointers on how to work around this?
Cheers
chico
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Bug number 3 - Insert tempo change at cursor doesn't. It inserts it at the nearest beat of the bar. If I want a tempo change at 1|3|788, for instance, it will actually insert the tempo change at 1|4|000, ie, the nearest beat of the bar.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Thanks for that pointer plat, thought i might be missing something thereIIRs wrote:Two slight changes to your method:
1. Insert the tempo change first, and then use the 'auto tempo' feature..
Does that work for you? I'm having trouble with it, see above ...IIRs wrote:2. Untick the 'remap clip positions when tempo is changed' option in the timecode menu.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
I'll experiment with it when I get home.. 
Not sure I understand that one: surely if your tempo map is correct, the changes will all occur at beat divisions.. at least for the purposes of a click track?chico.co.uk wrote:Bug number 3 - Insert tempo change at cursor doesn't. It inserts it at the nearest beat of the bar. If I want a tempo change at 1|3|788, for instance, it will actually insert the tempo change at 1|4|000, ie, the nearest beat of the bar.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
I guess that would make sense for creating a tempo map. I've got two machines here, one for music, the other for internet, in different rooms, and both have tracktion installed, although the internet one doesn't get used for recording. I came in here to post what i'd found on my music pc, and while checking it also occurred on this machine I happened to notice the tempo change happening not at the cursor, but on the beat division, as I was looking for weird things happening when you mess with tempo changes.IIRs wrote:Not sure I understand that one: surely if your tempo map is correct, the changes will all occur at beat divisions.. at least for the purposes of a click track?chico.co.uk wrote:Bug number 3 - Insert tempo change at cursor doesn't. It inserts it at the nearest beat of the bar. If I want a tempo change at 1|3|788, for instance, it will actually insert the tempo change at 1|4|000, ie, the nearest beat of the bar.
In other words, i wasn't trying to do the tempo map when i noticed that last "bug". I'll go and try it on the music pc, see if it helps or gets in the way, i'm not sure ...
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Right, I've had a play with this, and I can only assume that nobody does this in Tracktion, as it's just too fiddly.
I can't figure out a way to do this using midi with either "remap clip positions" turned on or off, so what i did was render the single hit midi notes to audio, and then (leaving remap clip positions on), tried to map the tempo that way. I've had to remap more or less every two bars to get a useable result, which is obviously down to the amount of drift in tempo in what i'm doing.
But it takes ages. You need to insert a tempo change, and make sure it's outside of the two bar region you want to map. In fact, it can't be in the clip at all, so you have to cut the clip before the in marker, then set an in marker at beat 1, set an out marker after the last beat of the two bar section, then choose auto tempo, and set based on the size of the marked region.
Then repeat. I've got a four and a half minute tune, and have spent over four hours doing this, and still haven't finished. Although i do keep going back and tweaking every so often.
But this technique would only work if you have a guide track you want to map that is one continuous audio track. If it's a collection of cut up audio tracks you can't leave "remap clip locations" turned on, or they move around following the bar locations, and go out of time.
However, if you turn this option off, then the start of your first audio guide clip doesn't lock to the first beat of the bar, so you can't turn the click track on to see if you've correctly set the tempo for that section or not.
Has anyone ACTUALLY DONE THIS in tracktion? Anyone done it more than once?
Auto tempo mapping to a tapped click track would be my new most required feature, as the results i'm getting suit my music much more than playing to a click. Much less sterile sounding. I previously had beat slicing top of my list, but this would revolutionise my music much more ....
Any tips greatly appreciated ... i guess it's not possible for a vst plugin to set the midi tempo in the host, no?
I can't figure out a way to do this using midi with either "remap clip positions" turned on or off, so what i did was render the single hit midi notes to audio, and then (leaving remap clip positions on), tried to map the tempo that way. I've had to remap more or less every two bars to get a useable result, which is obviously down to the amount of drift in tempo in what i'm doing.
But it takes ages. You need to insert a tempo change, and make sure it's outside of the two bar region you want to map. In fact, it can't be in the clip at all, so you have to cut the clip before the in marker, then set an in marker at beat 1, set an out marker after the last beat of the two bar section, then choose auto tempo, and set based on the size of the marked region.
Then repeat. I've got a four and a half minute tune, and have spent over four hours doing this, and still haven't finished. Although i do keep going back and tweaking every so often.
But this technique would only work if you have a guide track you want to map that is one continuous audio track. If it's a collection of cut up audio tracks you can't leave "remap clip locations" turned on, or they move around following the bar locations, and go out of time.
However, if you turn this option off, then the start of your first audio guide clip doesn't lock to the first beat of the bar, so you can't turn the click track on to see if you've correctly set the tempo for that section or not.
Has anyone ACTUALLY DONE THIS in tracktion? Anyone done it more than once?
Auto tempo mapping to a tapped click track would be my new most required feature, as the results i'm getting suit my music much more than playing to a click. Much less sterile sounding. I previously had beat slicing top of my list, but this would revolutionise my music much more ....
Any tips greatly appreciated ... i guess it's not possible for a vst plugin to set the midi tempo in the host, no?
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
I must confess, this isn't something I've needed to do in Tracktion.. maybe it would be quicker to loop 2 bar sections and tap a tempo for each?
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- KVRist
- 148 posts since 2 Sep, 2004
Yes, I've done it a few times and it's a pain in the arse, but using the shortcut keys helps a bit. The method I use is this:chico.co.uk wrote:Has anyone ACTUALLY DONE THIS in tracktion? Anyone done it more than once?
1. Make sure you have a single continuous audio clip for the whole song - render one if you need to, you can ditch it afterwards.
2. Line up the first beat on a bar line.
3. Line up the cursor at the same place.
4. Press / to split the clip.
5. Press ctrl & e to insert a tempo change at the cursor.
6. Press I to move the In marker to this point.
7. Find the first beat of the third bar and press O to place the Out marker.
8. Go to the auto tempo menu and pick the set tempo based on marked section option.
9. Line the cursor up at the start of the third bar and repeat from 4.
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- KVRAF
- 1615 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
DP had a great way of doing this: it allowed you to move beats while leaving the real time performance of the whole edit intact. So you would just grab a beat and drag it to the kick drum or whatever and either every other beat after would move the same amount or it could set a tempo from that point on or you could move just that beat...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
That's pretty much the method i'd ended up with after a bit of experimentation too. Except i hadn't looked up the shortcut for inserting a tempo change, so that was slowing me down a wee bit ...Samb wrote:Yes, I've done it a few times and it's a pain in the arse, but using the shortcut keys helps a bit. The method I use is this:
1. Make sure you have a single continuous audio clip for the whole song - render one if you need to, you can ditch it afterwards.
2. Line up the first beat on a bar line.
3. Line up the cursor at the same place.
4. Press / to split the clip.
5. Press ctrl & e to insert a tempo change at the cursor.
6. Press I to move the In marker to this point.
7. Find the first beat of the third bar and press O to place the Out marker.
8. Go to the auto tempo menu and pick the set tempo based on marked section option.
9. Line the cursor up at the start of the third bar and repeat from 4.
Real shame there's no faster way to do this. I would use it on pretty much every tune from here on in.
Anyone know if there's a cheap or open source sequencer that can auto tempo map a track? And then output a midi file with tempo changes in it I could import to Tracktion?
I'm guessing a plugin can't tell the host about tempo changes, yes/no?
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"