Mackie Killing Tracktion 2!

[headquest]

I wish I could find all the "SoundTrack is gonna kill Tracktion" posts. There was quite a few of them. Everybody swore SoundTrack would kill off a bunch of sequencers on the Mac. Then it was Garageband. Marketing is a hell of a drug.

True enough mate. Soundtrack Pro is going to kill off bias peak, y'know

[jens]

Unproductive posts are the bread and butter of this forum.

what's an unproductive post anyway? *belch*

[Lunch Money]

[braj]

There's no benefit in supporting VST as opposed to AU IMO.

Except for the thousand times more free plug-ins available in VST format. But some of those are PC VST only, too, so perhaps only a hundred times more.

Greg

Actually there are more free AU on MAc than VST.

[braj]

But I dont think anybody who gets Tracktion right now is very concerned with a good algo

I was really referring to a GB user that decides they want to upgrade to something more professional. I'm guessing they would take a look at Tracktion and see there is no decent way to stretch a loop, no nice file browser to view your midi and audio loops, and the bundled plugs out of the box don't sound as good as GB's. For a 'seasoned' GB user Logic Express is the perfect step up. Maybe Live5 would be better but more expensive too.

One reason GB's instruments sound so good is they have effects chains attached to them, which partially causes the high CPU usage. They should have 'raw' presets as well IMO. But most noob users won't know that, they'll just compare the sound and think T's plugs are subpar, which isn't necesasarily the case. But a new user probably won't understand how to add effects to get the sounds they are after.

So in summary I don't think T2 would be the perfect step up for the average GB user, I think they would miss the best stuff from GB and may not appreciate the best stuff in T2.

[Lunch Money]

I didn't know that about the AU. I guess since this community is fairly PC-centric, you just never hear about freeware AU.

Some of the other stuff was interesting, though:

1. The file browser-- well, 3rd party apps aside, I've never really needed to go beyond "import file" for audio. I can see how MIDI browsing could be handy, though. Even then, isn't WMP enough? There's a file browser built into Plasma Express (the only other host I'm using right now) and I hate using it.

2. Which bundled plugs out of which box? I'm sure you'd have to agree that the bundled plugs in the T2 box outshine the GarageBand plugs.

3. You're right in your last comment, though-- my experience is that you can't give people credit for looking too deeply (myself included sometimes). I'm all for apps that make life easy, but if the pre-attached effects chains are true, that's taking things a bit too far, IMO.

You might be right that T2 isn't a perfect match for the average GB user. On the other hand, maybe I SHOULD give people credit for wanting to use something with more flexibility and depth to it. The average GB user should be moving up to Dance eJay instead. Or Band In A Box.

Greg

[jtxx000]

I was really referring to a GB user that decides they want to upgrade to something more professional. I'm guessing they would take a look at Tracktion and see there is no decent way to stretch a loop, no nice file browser to view your midi and audio loops, and the bundled plugs out of the box don't sound as good as GB's. For a 'seasoned' GB user Logic Express is the perfect step up. Maybe Live5 would be better but more expensive too.

One reason GB's instruments sound so good is they have effects chains attached to them, which partially causes the high CPU usage. They should have 'raw' presets as well IMO. But most noob users won't know that, they'll just compare the sound and think T's plugs are subpar, which isn't necesasarily the case. But a new user probably won't understand how to add effects to get the sounds they are after.

So in summary Razz I don't think T2 would be the perfect step up for the average GB user, I think they would miss the best stuff from GB and may not appreciate the best stuff in T2.

you never know, i moved to tracktion from acid pro 4... the extra features and flexibility of routing in tracktion more than made up for the loss of time stretching.

[Lunch Money]

There may very well be Garagband users who move up and are also 'growing up' from loops (don't get me wrong, I like my drum loops). For them, timestretch is a non-issue. Actually, in general I think people place too high a value on the importance of timestretch.

I want better timestretch, too-- it IS one of my top wanted features; however, I am getting by fine without it for the most part, and Plasma Express is filling in the gap for the occasional shift I need to make with drums.

Greg

[braj]

I didn't know that about the AU. I guess since this community is fairly PC-centric, you just never hear about freeware AU.

Some of the other stuff was interesting, though:

1. The file browser-- well, 3rd party apps aside, I've never really needed to go beyond "import file" for audio. I can see how MIDI browsing could be handy, though. Even then, isn't WMP enough? There's a file browser built into Plasma Express (the only other host I'm using right now) and I hate using it.

2. Which bundled plugs out of which box? I'm sure you'd have to agree that the bundled plugs in the T2 box outshine the GarageBand plugs.

3. You're right in your last comment, though-- my experience is that you can't give people credit for looking too deeply (myself included sometimes). I'm all for apps that make life easy, but if the pre-attached effects chains are true, that's taking things a bit too far, IMO.

You might be right that T2 isn't a perfect match for the average GB user. On the other hand, maybe I SHOULD give people credit for wanting to use something with more flexibility and depth to it. The average GB user should be moving up to Dance eJay instead. Or Band In A Box.

Greg

1. The file browser in GB lets you see what key loops are in, and lets you filter loops based on metatags, so you can see only the drum loops that are for rock, for example. And from my experience, Windows Explorer and WMP are a terrible way to preview loops. You gotta be kidding.

2. The bundled plugs for GB are excellent and better in sound quality IMO than most of what is bundled with
T2. And definitely more stable and accessable. Nowhere near as flexible though. They are based on EXS samples mostly, plus some synth generators and though vanilla for the most part, are really great sounding.

3. The pre attached effects chains are part of instrument patches, and are great except for the amount of CPU they hog by default. You can edit them and remove them manually which is pretty easy, but there really should be an option to disable them with one click. The noob user wouldn't know this. One thing though is it does give you as the user the ability to take an AU synth like Pro53, create a sound in it, apply an effects chain, and save off a GB patch. That's pretty cool and equivelent to making a rack preset in T2.

The average GB user should be moving up to Dance eJay instead. Or Band In A Box.

That's pretty much wrong IMO. Like I said, LE7 would be the 'Logical' upgrade path. You can even open all your old GB songs in it. It's transparent.

[semiquaver]

details: L7E is twice the price of T!

there are indeed some interesting AU only plugs if you poke around...

T can and should compete w/LE7 but will have to support AU.

The JUCE board leads me to believe that AU support will be coming soon.

[Lunch Money]

1. The file browser in GB lets you see what key loops are in, and lets you filter loops based on metatags, so you can see only the drum loops that are for rock, for example. And from my experience, Windows Explorer and WMP are a terrible way to preview loops. You gotta be kidding.

Fair enough, the GB browser is superior. I had no doubts about that. But what are people DOING when they're making their songs? I just don't get it. When I make a song, I know what key I'm in, and I don't sort through a bunch of loops trying to find one in the 'right key'. This is fine for loops-only "musicians", but if you just use one or two loops (effects or drums, for example), who cares? Extra power is only useful if... it's used! All I'm saying is that a file browser really shouldn't be all that important. Are we MAKING our music? Most of the files in my songs are created from my host, not browsed to. So no, I'm not kidding. If I need to listen to a MIDI loop before importing it, I'll just double-click it and quickly listen in WMP to see if it's what I was looking for. I'm not saying WMP is better (clearly not, it's a piece of sh**!), but simply saying that I spend maybe 0.05% of my time "browsing" for anything anyhow.

2. The bundled plugs for GB are excellent and better in sound quality IMO than most of what is bundled with
T2. And definitely more stable and accessable. Nowhere near as flexible though. They are based on EXS samples mostly, plus some synth generators and though vanilla for the most part, are really great sounding.

<shrug> One perspective. GB's instruments seem to be more accessible, I'll give you that. But I didn't think we were talking about individual instruments as individual plug-ins.

3. The pre attached effects chains are part of instrument patches, and are great except for the amount of CPU they hog by default. You can edit them and remove them manually which is pretty easy, but there really should be an option to disable them with one click. The noob user wouldn't know this. One thing though is it does give you as the user the ability to take an AU synth like Pro53, create a sound in it, apply an effects chain, and save off a GB patch. That's pretty cool and equivelent to making a rack preset in T2.

Yup, that IS pretty cool.

Don't get me wrong-- Garageband looks awesome. I'm not slagging it. I think it's got tonnes of cool and even intuitive features.

The average GB user should be moving up to Dance eJay instead. Or Band In A Box.

That's pretty much wrong IMO. Like I said, LE7 would be the 'Logical' upgrade path. You can even open all your old GB songs in it. It's transparent.

Surely you haven't lost the ability to identify a joke.

[semiquaver]

I'm w/ LM on this - I view a loop library as a "toy". As people become more serious users they become less likely to use this kid of tool. GB is a neat very powerful toy - thats the idea of the thing and I am a fan and all but I don't think T needs a loop browser.

[braj]

details: L7E is twice the price of T!

there are indeed some interesting AU only plugs if you poke around...

T can and should compete w/LE7 but will have to support AU.

The JUCE board leads me to believe that AU support will be coming soon.

Since a lot of Mac users that may be using GB are students, a student discount on LE7 really makes it comparable with T2. $149 from Apple.

LM, I know timestretch isn't important to everyone, but people usually like to get more features when upgrading. Sure they will with T2, but they may see this timestretch and the loop browser are huge omissions. That's my point. It's not if T2 is a good upgrade for a GB user, but if will appear to be a good upgrade to someone who's looking. LE7 would make a lot more sense to me, at least on paper.

[Lunch Money]

I haven't and wouldn't argue with LE7 being a good move, too.

Some people will definitely see lack of timestretch as an omission. I'm still not sold on the Loop Browser, though. I mean... people who see it as a needed feature probably don't even really need to leave GB and are possibly just doing so because they 'can'.

Greg

[braj]

I'm w/ LM on this - I view a loop library as a "toy". As people become more serious users they become less likely to use this kid of tool. GB is a neat very powerful toy - thats the idea of the thing and I am a fan and all but I don't think T needs a loop browser.

Not necessarily a loop browser, but a file browser that could preview loops and midi files would be nice

But my point isn't that T2 is necessarily lacking anything, but may be perceived to be lacking when given a feature list once-over specifically by someone used to one way of working. I can see someone coming from Cubase or Logic where things are much more difficult in general getting stoked about T2 moreso than someone coming from the sheer simplicity of GB. They may not find it as attractive.