Mackie Killing Tracktion 2!

[AD80]

I was really referring to a GB user that decides they want to upgrade to something more professional. I'm guessing they would take a look at Tracktion and see there is no decent way to stretch a loop, no nice file browser to view your midi and audio loops, and the bundled plugs out of the box don't sound as good as GB's. For a 'seasoned' GB user Logic Express is the perfect step up. Maybe Live5 would be better but more expensive too.

One reason GB's instruments sound so good is they have effects chains attached to them, which partially causes the high CPU usage. They should have 'raw' presets as well IMO. But most noob users won't know that, they'll just compare the sound and think T's plugs are subpar, which isn't necesasarily the case. But a new user probably won't understand how to add effects to get the sounds they are after.

So in summary Razz I don't think T2 would be the perfect step up for the average GB user, I think they would miss the best stuff from GB and may not appreciate the best stuff in T2.

you never know, i moved to tracktion from acid pro 4... the extra features and flexibility of routing in tracktion more than made up for the loss of time stretching.

Exactly, my point was that stretching is NOT everybody's main focus. I had Acid back in 2001. Then I moved to Reason/PT/Cubase/Tracktion.

[braj]

I haven't and wouldn't argue with LE7 being a good move, too.

Some people will definitely see lack of timestretch as an omission. I'm still not sold on the Loop Browser, though. I mean... people who see it as a needed feature probably don't even really need to leave GB and are possibly just doing so because they 'can'.

Greg

Some reasons people would likely leave GB:

1. A better midi editor.
2. Automation of tempo changes.
3. Key signature changes mid-tune.
4. More CPU efficiency.
5. Video support.
6. Control surface support.
7. Higher supported audio resolution (guessing it's not that high anyway).

Logic has a loop browser, so it's not necessarily a kiddie feature (not that you said it was) and it is great for keeping midi drum loop libraries in order. I'm not big on pitched instrument loops either, but people do use them and knowing the key the loop was originally recorded in will let you know if it would reasonably work in another key. Someone making commercial clips or radio filler stuff would find this very useful.

The loop browser is an organizational tool, and though maybe Jules shouldn't focus his efforts on it for T2, it would be nice to have in any application IMO.

[Lunch Money]

There may well be something to what you say.

[semiquaver]

LM wrote

There may well be something to what you say.

[headquest]

I think you all perhaps missed my point about Staff Notation above?

Greg, following on from your point about people MAKING music, those with musical training will often want to have notation included, and for many schools and colleges lack of notation completely rules out a sequencer. G2 has staff notation, and the moment they added that, Apple changed the ball game imho.

I think we also mostly agree that timestretch is important.

And loop browers appear in most top end products - Logic, Sonar, Live, Audition, etc.

This is not just "Toy" stuff, but top end features.

I agree with braj that for the Mac users, having "bought" Garageband as part of the deal, moving up to LE7 and from there to Logic Pro 7.1 is the totally natural progression. Soundtrack Pro is also an excellent option (for audio editing and video) that has just been added to this line.

T2 could well be seen by most as an irrellevant and pointless sidestep on that journey, particularly while it lacks important features that are so strong within the Apple sequencing line.

[semiquaver]

headquest - I was a DP user who grew frustrated by the terrible vsti im,plementation and awkward windowing and set up. When I saw GB I wondered if I might not be able to dump DP and work more simply and immediately there. No dice - time signatures and tempo automation are critical to my work. And the interface turned out imo not to be so quick after all. So I dowloaded Logicexpress demo thinking as you say that it would be a natural... I found all of the frustrationn I had w/dp and then some. For me it was Logic that was the irrelevant detour as T has provided the immediacy I sought from GB as well as the power of DP (and then some).

Notation? I am a trained composer and use Sibelius for charts etc. The defective notation in mostr sequencers does not exactly rate as a feature for me.

Finally about all the pissing and moaning about time stretch: yes the algo should and will be improved (these things never sound great btw). But I found that I reach for stretching less in T as the overlapping clips and auto-fading make stretching to create smooth edits less frequently necessary.

In any case I maintain that some features: loop browser, crqap notation, are toys and that the logic, the desgn, the paradigm if you will are the meat of the DAW. There T flattens LogicExpress handily at half the price.

[headquest]

headquest - I was a DP user who grew frustrated by the terrible vsti im,plementation and awkward windowing and set up. When I saw GB I wondered if I might not be able to dump DP and work more simply and immediately there. No dice - time signatures and tempo automation are critical to my work. And the interface turned out imo not to be so quick after all. So I dowloaded Logicexpress demo thinking as you say that it would be a natural... I found all of the frustrationn I had w/dp and then some. For me it was Logic that was the irrelevant detour as T has provided the immediacy I sought from GB as well as the power of DP (and then some).

Thanks for the background semiquaver. I think your journey mirrors my own in many ways,...except of course that I am on PC and started out in Cubase. But very similar experience...

Notation? I am a trained composer and use Sibelius for charts etc. The defective notation in mostr sequencers does not exactly rate as a feature for me.

Again, likewise. I use Sibelius 3 as well, and I hae a fairly low opinion of score editing in sequencers. I understand it is good in Logic though, and that GB inherits some of that...

The reason it interests me is not for myself, tbh, but for students. Obviously they can't afford Sibelius (around £500 here in the UK), and it is useful for their homework to have some ability to work with notation. If that is combined with a sequencer too - and functional at least - then they have a good bargain.

In any case I maintain that some features: loop browser, crap notation, are toys and that the logic, the design, the paradigm if you will are the meat of the DAW. There T flattens LogicExpress handily at half the price.

I don't use pre-recorded loops myself as a rule. I find a decent browser useful for locating samples though. Thankfully for me, Reason 3 has a much improved browser (I'm just on the cusp of upgrading at last - delayed due to finances!) and Live 4 has a fantastic built in browser for everything right there.

By the way, in terms of prices, some relevant comparissons of street prices at the lower end of the scale in the UK:

Logic Express: around £170
Tracktion 2: around £130 (so not half price of LE here)
Cubase SE: around £90.

Educational prices of some top end sequencers are now lower than the street price of T2 (which hasn't yet made it into any educational catalogues I've seen).

[larsby]

firstly, The loop browser in GB is very limited, add to many loops and you're just up to be confused.

Secondly, I tried Logic light, but ppl wanting some more power and the simplicity of GB are in for a dissapointment (that was what I got)

My advice to anyone wanting to move from GB to L go to a Apple store and feel it out.

[braj]

Secondly, I tried Logic light, but ppl wanting some more power and the simplicity of GB are in for a dissapointment (that was what I got)

The only think I found difficult about LE7 was setting up non-Logic Control mixing surfaces. Other than that, if you use the 'basic production' template. it's a relatively easy app IMO.