discuss...
T vs. Live for 16ch+ live recordings (16ch+ simultaneous recording)...
pros. cons. other programs? other concepts? what's up? what's the best thing to use on a PC, using the onyx1640 f/w? enlighten us. discuss, argue, flame and make the truth known.
T vs. Live for 16ch live recordings.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
owning both (T2 and live4 / live5 beta) my gut reaction would be to go with T2 for this specific task ... its what it was built for ...
... i dont do much live recording (and certainly not 16 channels at once) but i did record the schools summer gig on wednesday night using T2 and it was a breeze ... setting up for recording and switching setups between tracks / acts was SO quick and easy ... my experience with live4 suggests it is more than capable of doing the job but would PROBABLY (YMMV) be slightly clumsier to use in your example situation (but would RULE for mixing / editing / chopping up / restructuring those recorded tracks afterwards (mind you - T2 would also be pretty handy in that situation also )) ...
slainte
rob
... i dont do much live recording (and certainly not 16 channels at once) but i did record the schools summer gig on wednesday night using T2 and it was a breeze ... setting up for recording and switching setups between tracks / acts was SO quick and easy ... my experience with live4 suggests it is more than capable of doing the job but would PROBABLY (YMMV) be slightly clumsier to use in your example situation (but would RULE for mixing / editing / chopping up / restructuring those recorded tracks afterwards (mind you - T2 would also be pretty handy in that situation also )) ...
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
thank you sir. i have the same feelings about T. I am currently using the latest version of T1, and find it to be quite useful in live recording situations, but was at the same time wondering if Live had anything to offer that T didn't. I am doing all of this with Cubase LE and T1 at the moment. I get the feeling from looking at a demo that Live will be very confusing for me. I can't make sense of it. It seems to be more oriented towards MIDI musicians, with audio capability. Is this true? I'm sure I am not getting the whole picture by looking at it with confusion in my eyes and no way to navigate the finer points other than trial and error...which is no way to go about learning a software. haha.
thank you for the feedback. I am definitely NOT looking for a better software, just wondering what else is out there and what they are made to do. I mean..I guess if there were a software specifically MADE for live tracking, I would have to try it out at least, but still mix in T.
Once I figured out I had to update and move my waveshell into the tracktion plugs folder I was sold on T. No way is there anything that touches the workflow of T. Absolutely great.
Thanks for the input.
I trust everything went golden with the school recording? Is this band concert program material or talent show kind of stuff? or is it bigger than that? college, h.s...? I'm sorry, I just don't know where you teach. My guess is at a university or a high school? Probably a university with your etremely high IQ.
I guess I'm going to have to try all 16 channels at least once with T. Anybody out there willing to be a subject? I'm in Virginia. Call me: 540-998-5663 (Lee Harless)
thank you for the feedback. I am definitely NOT looking for a better software, just wondering what else is out there and what they are made to do. I mean..I guess if there were a software specifically MADE for live tracking, I would have to try it out at least, but still mix in T.
Once I figured out I had to update and move my waveshell into the tracktion plugs folder I was sold on T. No way is there anything that touches the workflow of T. Absolutely great.
Thanks for the input.
I trust everything went golden with the school recording? Is this band concert program material or talent show kind of stuff? or is it bigger than that? college, h.s...? I'm sorry, I just don't know where you teach. My guess is at a university or a high school? Probably a university with your etremely high IQ.
I guess I'm going to have to try all 16 channels at least once with T. Anybody out there willing to be a subject? I'm in Virginia. Call me: 540-998-5663 (Lee Harless)
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- KVRer
- 6 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Munich, Germany
I use tracktion 1 (on win98) with 2 ews88mt´s for 16ch recording. works all fine for me. mixing afterwards is fine too.
Live I don´t use, so no info from me for that... sorry!
cheers,
osifuz578
Live I don´t use, so no info from me for that... sorry!
cheers,
osifuz578
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
wow. this is good news. i was told it worked, but havent actually found anyone that uses it in the same manner that i do. I find that while tracking with T that my work flow is also greatly enhanced. I HAD been mixing down in cubase because i couldnt find a dx to vst wrapper. somebody mentioned the vb stuff, but it doesnt seem to work. says something about "pins not being compatible" or something. trying to get antares mic modeler to work in T is impossible. that's my ONLY beef other than the possible inclusion of a totally integrated mixing desk of somekind. ( i know, this makes me the enemy now), but that would make T the best live tracking and mixdown software ever made, in my opinion. but it's just my opinion. and i know it's a hotly debated topic.
anybody know where another dx to vst wrapper is other than the vincent burell stuff?
it doesnt seem to work with the antares mic modeler.
anybody know where another dx to vst wrapper is other than the vincent burell stuff?
it doesnt seem to work with the antares mic modeler.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
heehee ... aside from my belief that trial-and-error IS the best way to learn MOST things ...lharless wrote:thank you sir. i have the same feelings about T. I am currently using the latest version of T1, and find it to be quite useful in live recording situations, but was at the same time wondering if Live had anything to offer that T didn't. I am doing all of this with Cubase LE and T1 at the moment. I get the feeling from looking at a demo that Live will be very confusing for me. I can't make sense of it. It seems to be more oriented towards MIDI musicians, with audio capability. Is this true? I'm sure I am not getting the whole picture by looking at it with confusion in my eyes and no way to navigate the finer points other than trial and error...which is no way to go about learning a software. haha.
... to clarify ... live is also VERY audio (rather than MIDI) oriented but has recently added pretty decent MIDI capabilities ... the distinction i would make between the two apps is that T2 (T1 also) is designed PRIMARILY for audio recording and editing whereas (IMHO) live is more of a compositional / performance / improvisation tool for audio / MIDI although it can also do the whole multitracking / DAW job too ... just depends where your main focus as a user lies i guess ...
the only other software i have experience with that is built for this is adobe audition (used to be cooledit) ... its a VERY capable multitrack recorder and powerful audio editor ...lharless wrote:thank you for the feedback. I am definitely NOT looking for a better software, just wondering what else is out there and what they are made to do. I mean..I guess if there were a software specifically MADE for live tracking, I would have to try it out at least, but still mix in T.
agreed ... although i DO use live for other tasks i find it more suited to (see above) ...lharless wrote:Once I figured out I had to update and move my waveshell into the tracktion plugs folder I was sold on T. No way is there anything that touches the workflow of T. Absolutely great.
no problems mate ... always (heehee) happy to offer my opinions as you know ...lharless wrote:Thanks for the input.
the school i teach (art and media studies BTW) at is an 11-18 mixed comprehensive ... i THINK your US equivalent would be a public high school ??? ... the gig was our annual showcase for the less formal side of the music department ... so lots of emo / indie / punk-pop stuff with a smattering of r-n-b / soul / pop thrown in ... acts chosen from an open audition ... the recording went fairly smooth (only listened very briefly to bits of it so far TBH) APART FROM THE FACT THAT (this was my first major live recording effort remember) i forgot the fact that the feed i took off the desk was ONLY from the feeds into the desk and so my mix didnt take into account the physical live room sound from the drumkit and onstage guitar amps and only included their mic inputs ... so my mix going into T2 was a bit out (vocals too high particularly) ... but i had a backup minidisc recorder running too AND a DV camera recording the stage so im sure i can cobble together a half-decent sounding result from somewhere (my recordings are only for the music department records and private copies for the performers so no real pressure to produce a highly-polished result beyond 'professional' pride and a desire to learn this stuff) ... oh well - were going to reprise the gig in the new term come september so at least i get another chance ... if nothing else i now know T2 runs flawlessly in that situation even if i dont ...lharless wrote:I trust everything went golden with the school recording? Is this band concert program material or talent show kind of stuff? or is it bigger than that? college, h.s...? I'm sorry, I just don't know where you teach. My guess is at a university or a high school?
extremely high IQ ??? which fool told you that ??? ... im just a good actor and always have a thesaurus and a dictionary to hand for those 'need a long impressive sounding word in here' moments ...lharless wrote:Probably a university with your etremely high IQ.
good luck with that ... WHATEVER tool you choose for it ...lharless wrote:I guess I'm going to have to try all 16 channels at least once with T. Anybody out there willing to be a subject? I'm in Virginia. Call me: 540-998-5663 (Lee Harless)
... take care mate ...
slainte
rob
Last edited by pHz on Fri Jul 08, 2005 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
odd ... the VB dx>VST rack works fine in T1 / T2 here ... im guessing it must be an issue with the antares plugin which i dint have so cant test ... anyone else ???lharless wrote:anybody know where another dx to vst wrapper is other than the vincent burell stuff?
it doesnt seem to work with the antares mic modeler.
slainte
rob-
- KVRist
- 54 posts since 30 Jun, 2004 from Seattle Area
I very frequently use Tracktion to record 13 to 16 channels with my own band, and I've never had any trouble with it. (My I/O is FireWire-based, MOTU 896 w/Behringer ADA8000 for 8 additional pre's.)
Since upgrading to Tiger (I'm on a PowerBook), I've not been able to use T2 because of disk-related issues which are supposedly going to be fixed in the next dot-release. So at my last gig I used Live 4.0.4 to record 16-tracks for about 3 hours at 44.1/24. Again, not a hitch.
Not being nearly as much of an expert using Live as Tracktion, I can't tell you if it's more or less suited to the task, but at least with how my brain works, Tracktion was much easier to pick up quickly for my Audio-only (no MIDI) work.
However Live does seem to have many intriguing possibilities, especially if you're doing pop or rock music -- anything that's highly structured and has a significant amount of repetition in it. I think that's where Live's Audio features, looping and compositional features will come into play.
But if you're doing improvisational music as I am, especially if you've got tempo or time changes and not much repetition, Tracktion will probably be a better fit.
Since upgrading to Tiger (I'm on a PowerBook), I've not been able to use T2 because of disk-related issues which are supposedly going to be fixed in the next dot-release. So at my last gig I used Live 4.0.4 to record 16-tracks for about 3 hours at 44.1/24. Again, not a hitch.
Not being nearly as much of an expert using Live as Tracktion, I can't tell you if it's more or less suited to the task, but at least with how my brain works, Tracktion was much easier to pick up quickly for my Audio-only (no MIDI) work.
However Live does seem to have many intriguing possibilities, especially if you're doing pop or rock music -- anything that's highly structured and has a significant amount of repetition in it. I think that's where Live's Audio features, looping and compositional features will come into play.
But if you're doing improvisational music as I am, especially if you've got tempo or time changes and not much repetition, Tracktion will probably be a better fit.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
oh yeah lee ... i guess the other factor is your hard-drive speed if youre trying to write 16 audio tracks to disk at any one time ...
slainte
rob
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
yeah, i am now realising that hard drives could be considered an issue. on my live recording pc, a Sager np5670, i have two internal 5400's (60gb) and one external 7200 (120gb) f/w usb combo. i have taken to recording onto the 120gb drive when using more than a few tracks. it should be enough. the slower drives were fine for my old pro tools le 6.4 rig... so i guess i'm ok. i did all kinds of stuff on the 5400's with pro tools le before i realized that i had a 7200rpm external drive. lol. i didn't pay attention to that part of the specs on the thing really. i was more concerned with the amount of space for storage of thoses huge 30gig sessions. haha!
the most i've tracked live with T1 has been a 5 channel drum session for an upcoming project. each song in it's own folder, no more than 5 minutes long each. so really this kind of recording is no problem at all. im excited to get to work on the other tracks next week, because really, this will be the first time i have used Tracktion with this artist. the last recordings we did together were very intensive pro tools edits. it was a beast! im hoping T makes things easier with this guy.
once i see that this software allows me to do this, i will sigh with relief. then i will let another sigh when i get a successful long live show under foot, edited and mixed in T.
i have confidence that the software will work fine. but...will my computer equipment hold up to the challenge? that is to be determined.
--
so i gather that both live and tracktion are audio machines with recent midi upgrades. and i gather that both are fine for live recording. live being the looping champion in the audio realm, tracktion being the editing champion in the audio realm. both performing fine on both fronts, having dramatically different ways of approaching the animal.
so i guess ill go get sonar.
...just kidding. sonar sucks.
the most i've tracked live with T1 has been a 5 channel drum session for an upcoming project. each song in it's own folder, no more than 5 minutes long each. so really this kind of recording is no problem at all. im excited to get to work on the other tracks next week, because really, this will be the first time i have used Tracktion with this artist. the last recordings we did together were very intensive pro tools edits. it was a beast! im hoping T makes things easier with this guy.
once i see that this software allows me to do this, i will sigh with relief. then i will let another sigh when i get a successful long live show under foot, edited and mixed in T.
i have confidence that the software will work fine. but...will my computer equipment hold up to the challenge? that is to be determined.
--
so i gather that both live and tracktion are audio machines with recent midi upgrades. and i gather that both are fine for live recording. live being the looping champion in the audio realm, tracktion being the editing champion in the audio realm. both performing fine on both fronts, having dramatically different ways of approaching the animal.
so i guess ill go get sonar.
...just kidding. sonar sucks.
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- KVRAF
- 1972 posts since 18 Apr, 2004
just out of curiousity if you're doing work like jsavin, what would be different in tracktion than in Lives arrangement view with the warp engine turned off?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
i feel the need to say, that while i have also used many different softwares in my quest to find a better solution, tracktion is the one that i keep coming back to, time and time again.
i started out using an audigy card in a desktop using guitar tracks pro 2. eventually i got the bug to do live recordings of local bands. so i migrated to a pro tools le rig.
i bought the 002r, then i bought some preamps to get myself up to 16channels simultaneous. i used that system for about 11 months. i wrote back to the dealer and let them know just how faulty pro tools le is for live recording. i had problems on top of problems. they sold the system to me as a "perfect live recording solution", and supported all of the external preamps and said that the system was "perfect" for what i was doing. ...BS!!!
i wrote, and wrote and wrote emails to the company and finally they helped me auction the system off. i lost a total of $100, give or take a donut.
i was going to go with the MOTU896HD's. Two of them. I decided eventually that having better preamps and getting a free mixer attached to the preamps was a much better option. i bought the mackie onyx 1640 with the firewire option. i had enough left over to buy some more mics, a headphone amp, more pairs of headphones and a few other gadgets. i even bought a us-122 just to fool around with for kicks, out of the money i spent on the pro tools le rig. WOW!! it has been, at the minimum, a hundred fold better than the pro tools le rig. pro tools le is a teaser system, meant to make you "need" to bump up to the higher end systems. i don't see any other purpose for it's existence. and every pro tools le user at some time has felt the same way, if they're paying attention.
I imported some of my pt le sessions into tracktion for review and to try it out. tracktion allows me to use more plugins, and it lets me have an eq on every track (much like nuendo, but better). it lets me work faster, i don't have to look at all of the confusion. i don't have to tote a peice of hardware around with me if i want to do headphone mixes on the road. the 002r was cumbersome, and any upgrade that was available or "needed" was so expensive that i barely had money for plugins. i bought the thing and one month later, they made me pay for a $75 upgrade. totally silly. i am much happier with tracktion than i was with pro tools le. tracktion even comes with better plugs than pro tools le.
i don't know what else to say about it. it's just better. it really behaves like it has an external dsp processor. i actually can see the difference from my cubase as opposed to tracktion. cubase uses more dsp than T, by far. T is the answer. take it from a guy that has played the field.
i just haven't been able to get ableton live to do anything other than play the demo songs, haha! it's too confusing for me to get a recording going. and i've been around the block a few times. that's saying something.
so i guess i've talked myself out of the question i first posed. t vs. live in a live situation.
i suppose that tracktion really is better, because i can USE it. so i guess this topic is done. haha! wow! it's true, the answer really does lie inside of us. I am T, and T is me.
i started out using an audigy card in a desktop using guitar tracks pro 2. eventually i got the bug to do live recordings of local bands. so i migrated to a pro tools le rig.
i bought the 002r, then i bought some preamps to get myself up to 16channels simultaneous. i used that system for about 11 months. i wrote back to the dealer and let them know just how faulty pro tools le is for live recording. i had problems on top of problems. they sold the system to me as a "perfect live recording solution", and supported all of the external preamps and said that the system was "perfect" for what i was doing. ...BS!!!
i wrote, and wrote and wrote emails to the company and finally they helped me auction the system off. i lost a total of $100, give or take a donut.
i was going to go with the MOTU896HD's. Two of them. I decided eventually that having better preamps and getting a free mixer attached to the preamps was a much better option. i bought the mackie onyx 1640 with the firewire option. i had enough left over to buy some more mics, a headphone amp, more pairs of headphones and a few other gadgets. i even bought a us-122 just to fool around with for kicks, out of the money i spent on the pro tools le rig. WOW!! it has been, at the minimum, a hundred fold better than the pro tools le rig. pro tools le is a teaser system, meant to make you "need" to bump up to the higher end systems. i don't see any other purpose for it's existence. and every pro tools le user at some time has felt the same way, if they're paying attention.
I imported some of my pt le sessions into tracktion for review and to try it out. tracktion allows me to use more plugins, and it lets me have an eq on every track (much like nuendo, but better). it lets me work faster, i don't have to look at all of the confusion. i don't have to tote a peice of hardware around with me if i want to do headphone mixes on the road. the 002r was cumbersome, and any upgrade that was available or "needed" was so expensive that i barely had money for plugins. i bought the thing and one month later, they made me pay for a $75 upgrade. totally silly. i am much happier with tracktion than i was with pro tools le. tracktion even comes with better plugs than pro tools le.
i don't know what else to say about it. it's just better. it really behaves like it has an external dsp processor. i actually can see the difference from my cubase as opposed to tracktion. cubase uses more dsp than T, by far. T is the answer. take it from a guy that has played the field.
i just haven't been able to get ableton live to do anything other than play the demo songs, haha! it's too confusing for me to get a recording going. and i've been around the block a few times. that's saying something.
so i guess i've talked myself out of the question i first posed. t vs. live in a live situation.
i suppose that tracktion really is better, because i can USE it. so i guess this topic is done. haha! wow! it's true, the answer really does lie inside of us. I am T, and T is me.
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- KVRAF
- 1972 posts since 18 Apr, 2004
this is one of the funniest threads I've seen. 
very well I have been entertained, glad you're enjoying tracktion and hope you continue to do so.
peace
very well I have been entertained, glad you're enjoying tracktion and hope you continue to do so.
peace
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Wouldn't T2 being 64 bit be better than Live for recording audio of a live performance? Also, since I have a POS Audigy 2 ZX I'm not sure but T2 may be able to record to higher specs besides 64bit mixing.
Regarding Live being confusing, I totally have had a different experience. It has always been dead simple to me. More intuitive than T IMO and very straightforward. I guess the Session view can be something to wrap your head around but I just think of it as the mixer with staging slots for clips I may want to use on each track. If you still get confused by it, just stay in Arrange view and you'll have a traditional DAW experience. Live 5 makes it easier to forgo the Session view as well.
Regarding Live being confusing, I totally have had a different experience. It has always been dead simple to me. More intuitive than T IMO and very straightforward. I guess the Session view can be something to wrap your head around but I just think of it as the mixer with staging slots for clips I may want to use on each track. If you still get confused by it, just stay in Arrange view and you'll have a traditional DAW experience. Live 5 makes it easier to forgo the Session view as well.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
I have Tracktion 2, Live 4 and Live 5 beta.
I would say that both are very capable and can be used for getting excellent results. However there are a few differences which give them different advantages for you to consider:
Tracktions advantages:
- Large input meters view
- 64-bit mix
- Mackie mixing and mastering plugs, including Final Mix. Excellent stuff!
Live's advantages:
- Ability to adjust tempo of audio if you need to
- Warp markers: these allow you to get that final chord properly in time, of fix the dodgy bass player to be tight in time with the drum
- mixing paradigm: the more traditional approach makes aux send/returns and bussing more intuitive imho
As of Live 5, it also has a far more flexible freeze function than T2.
Depending on which of these different features is more important to you will determine your choice.
I would say that both are very capable and can be used for getting excellent results. However there are a few differences which give them different advantages for you to consider:
Tracktions advantages:
- Large input meters view
- 64-bit mix
- Mackie mixing and mastering plugs, including Final Mix. Excellent stuff!
Live's advantages:
- Ability to adjust tempo of audio if you need to
- Warp markers: these allow you to get that final chord properly in time, of fix the dodgy bass player to be tight in time with the drum
- mixing paradigm: the more traditional approach makes aux send/returns and bussing more intuitive imho
As of Live 5, it also has a far more flexible freeze function than T2.
Depending on which of these different features is more important to you will determine your choice.