Spacing out a mix

[will.record.for.food]

Ive been recording and mixing heavily for 3 years now. I that time, Ive learned many many great things and had the opportuninties to talk and learn from many people (especially here @KVR).

Im usually pretty happy with my mixes, but here latley it seems that things, while they might sound pretty tight alot of times, also sound kind of muddy.

For the most part Ive tried to have the purist type attitude of "record the source perfectly so you dont need any EQ or compression or anything...

So for all you very experienced people out there, I hear alot of talk of sculpting your "sonic realestate" If anybody could offer some suggestions on how they do that or if theres a...umm...chart of commonly cut frequencies of particular instruments or something like that.

I know Ill probably get alot of "just try it and figure out what works for you" shots on this one, but heck, I have been trying. If any of you care give some of my mixes a listen for some more...guided advice, I would appreciate it greatly.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/2/hands ... _music.htm

[P.T.]

It gets muddy when too many instruments (no matter how well recorded) have content in the lower mids and upper bass and it starts to build up.

[rich_h]

One trick I find works for a harmonically rich waveform (overdriven rhythm guitar or synth strings) is to create a delay - long enough so that you don't get any flanging effects with the dry signal, short enough that it doesn't affect the feel - and pan the dry signal hard to one speaker and the delayed signal to the other, which creates a nice 'hole' in the middle of the stereo image in which to put your lead instruments.

Having said that your mixes sound more or less okay to me - vocals could be a little louder in Beans Anthem as I can't pick out the lyrics too easily.

[will.record.for.food]

Much Thanks to you! the 2 songs are all performed and recorded by me. The vocals (in my head at least) are usually the weakest part of the song, so I subconciously push them down...

Thank you again for the responses.

-Jeff

[edited some poor grammer]

[oxbee]

http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id ... age_id=32/

Hi I've learnt a lot of thing from this guy (Bob Katz) and this article is just THE article to make your mix wide and bright. With some experiencing, you will achieve to do some very nice things.

Plus, I would suggest:
- use real reverbs plug ins or unit like the Classic Reverb by Kjarkhus (spell???) or the GlaceVerb (both free) to make your mix wide.
- Don't hesitate to hardly cut frequencies that are not necessary. If you want to focus on the bass, don't hesitate to cut low frequencies on your drums. It won't hurt. Sometimes you will have a strange result track by track but it will fit perfectly together. Just don't mind. EQuing is a natural mix process and it has nothing to do with EQuing after recording (to correct the recording).
- Use compression to bring a sound to life but don't do it automatically. You will have a muddy result. On the other hand, use compression on sensitive parts like drums and possibly with a softclip (or a clipper to limit the signal while using short attack and high gain).

[ceenda]

oxbee: Awesome, must read over that a few times.

I often have a problem with orchestral work with instruments like double bass, tuba, etc. overpowering the lower end and creating this rather 'thick' mix that sounds like it's all bottled up in one area. Hopefully, I can get some more instrument definition. Thanks!

[AndrewSimon]

You can start here:

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/rwtip/a ... rw15r.html

but let your ears be the final judge.

[rpc9943]

ive found the more i read on this stuff, the less you learn. experiment, find your own sweet spots and niches, learn your tools and find what makes things sound good together. get voxengo span and pop it in the master bus, solo each track and see where on the spectrum things are offending each other. youll get an ear for it, but span wont hurt look, listen, and turn EQ down on stuff thats making it muddy! track by track.

RonC

[ceenda]

I've been using Voxengo SPAN alot recently. Mostly by putting one before EQ and one after and just trying to visualise the changes as well as hearing them.

Generally, in a mix, are you looking to make sure that instruments aren't dominating certain frequency ranges together?

Andrew: Nice! Just printed that out and have been trying some frequency tweaks on different tracks. Very general, but certainly good as a starting point to move towards that 'sweet spot' on certain instruments.

[rpc9943]

yes ceenda, thats what you do dont look too much though, try earing it

[Hypertone]

I've found that "mud" is caused by a build up of frequencies around the 300-600hz area. I try to do low cuts when mixing, but the frequencies still build up with more elements in the mix.

Your mixes are pretty good, but I do think the are a little heavy in the lower mids. You might try low cutting the guitar, and eqing the bass in the lower mids. The vox could be a bit louder in the second track, and they would really benefit from some eq.

When I am mastering my mixed down tracks, I'll take an eq and set a really narrow "q", do about an 8-10db cut, maybe even more, then sweep the frequencies in that area, you can hear the mud dissapear and the mix gain clarity when your in the right spot. I'll sweep around until I can almost hear the mix "come into tune" for lack of a better explanation. Once you do it enough, you can tell when you've got the right frequencies, then you can mess with the Q setting, and level to get it just right. Also, adding a little sparkle can add some clarity and cut the mud. I also usually add a tiny bit of eq in the higher frequencies, using the same frequency sweeping technique. It can add a little bit of "air" to the mix, but it can also make it harsh and fatiquing, so listen closely, less is usually more in the mastering stage.

Sometimes I will add a db or 3 around 85hz, then do a cut below 30-40hz. Doing this along with cutting in the 300hz range will give you a big full bottom, without the mud.

One thing that can really make mud is bass, because alot of bass tracks are heavy in the 300hz area, and often the kick is too. What I have found is the kick and bass are the foundation of a mix, and they have to live together harmoniously. You have to decide what is going to be at the bottom, kick or bass. If your kick is at the bottom, you might have to sculpt out an area for your bass, which should be cut around 100hz, the same goes vice versa for the bass.

[IIRs]

DYNAMICS!!!

Try expanding instead of compressing, especially sample / synth parts: it makes things sound more exciting, and mixes fit together more easily when there is more dynamic range to work in.

Haas delays are good too (someone mentioned them further up) keep the delay time below about 25 - 30 ms, and pan it somewhere different to the dry sound; it creates a much better impression of space than simple panning. (mda stereo is possibly my most frequently used plug!)

[will.record.for.food]

Thanks for all the advice guys...One song in particular has been giving me trouble, but going through all my old mixes, the 100-250 area has been whats killing me. As I brought frequencies of different instruments down, it allowed me to bring the bass volume down drastically (for the good)!

Ill post a new mixdown (or a link I guess)..im uploading it to a site now, but I have dial up....

Thanks again to all who replied

[will.record.for.food]

ok...for lo-fi stream
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3 ... 22175&q=Lo

for hi fi stream
http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3 ... 22175&q=Hi

The snare has alot more power as well as the kick drum

[lharless]

try this once: start out with raw tracks, untouched. set your levels, then listen... what do you need to change for this mix to work? at this point look at your text references, get your rough ideas of an eq curve for each instrument, without soloing anything. or if you feel you need to compress at this point, do so, but ever so slight. set your stereo field by panning each channel to taste, and then see where you need to go from there.

if you're going to be using a spatial effect on the mains (mda stereo, waves S1, voxengo span), you need to be careful about how much reverb you use on the centered instruments. and in general, try not to use too much reverb on anything anyway. nothing sounds worse than over-reverberation in a mix, making it appear to be overly needy of "help".

if you then use something like wavelab t get an overall eq, or other effects on the main mix, before sending it out to a mastering house, just go lightly on anything that you add to the mix.

that should help you out a little.


ps. pan the overheads left and right, snare a little to the left (yet leave a sense of it being centered), the bass drum centered, bass guitar centered or widened a bit with a little delay and centered. guitars always a little off center from each other and eq'd a little differently from each other. i always roll off the lows to taste on each guitar to keep down the muddiness, experiment with this, everybody has a different opinion on guitar eq. with your keyboards or ther random instruments, just make sure that you get a solid and defined recording to begin with. or with sampled stuff or pads, just make sure that it sounds "alive" and that it has a nice full range and all together pure sound to work with in the beginning. (i once recorded a banjo-guitar-thing-type-instrument and it came out sounding like a mandolin in the end because i used the wrong mic... make sure you get this right). vocal backing should be sort of wide (in my opinion) and reverberated a tiny bit. lead vocals should remain un reverberated until the last moment. the vocals are going to be one of the most picked-apart feature of a recording. do the reverb last on this track. in other words, don't commit to anything on the lead vocals until the last moment. that's what i do. ...anyway...

good luck.

and get the waves plugs, you'll love life afterward. don't work with anything less. your mix is worth it.

adios.