The Best Looking Host Console View

[jens]

Jens, make a nice Podium screenshot, showing a neatly layed out mixer, will ya?

will do!

[jmh]

Nothing like a purist view of point to brighten up a discussion...

For some of us, mixing is a dedicated part of the process, and it actually helps in that task when you have a good console view so you can focus on doing just that, mixing.

Nuendo looks rather spiffy indeed (a tad better than SX).

And hooray for customizability.

(I wouldn't mind seeing something in Tracktion along the lines of input monitoring - a similar view for the output section and I'd like it more... not that I don't like certain aspects of T already, the NFR version is getting used more and more nowadays)

Regards,

JMH

[headquest]

Every single one of those fake console shots makes me sick to my stomach now that I'm using Tracktion. What a waste of time they are for a mouse-pusher like me. Unless you've got a control surface connected to your machine; where you can use your 4 fingers and 2 thumbs to shove sliders up and down, the console view is a true waste of programming and screen space.
-Scott

For you perhaps, Scott, but personally I think we're lucky to have the choice. Different approaches depending on what works best for you, etc.

It's no coincidence that Pro Tools and Reason are so popular with a number of experienced "name" artists - the hardware emulation means that they can instantly understand the mixing paradigm without refering to the manual.

For those who don't come from a studio/hardware background, though, I think that programs such as Tracktion might make more sense "out-of-the-box".

The other point to bear in mind is that the particular layout and ergonimics of the hardware mixing desk didn't develop by chance... the layout of a studio mixing desk is designed for clarity and comfort, and there are many aspects of this that I would say translate into the software environment quite well.

For example, the use of Aux Send/Return bussing on a hardware mixer allowed for a single hardware reverb, for example, to be used across a mix. In a software environment this approach works equally well, enabling you to conserve CPU by running a single reverb instance, and helping you to get a consistent sound across your mix.

This is a good example for another reason... you cite Tracktion as your prefered mixing environment, but as a Tracktion user myself I find its aux send/return implementation a clumsy afterthought as added in version 2. The simple send/return setup in Ableton Live (and others, of course) is much quicker to use, at least for me.

Throwing out the beneficial lessons learnt over decades in the hardware environment - for the sake of claiming originality or being novel - is not the same as making progress

[advaya]

Yeah... I kinda like the look of Nuendo's console, but are those the default colours? My only gripe would be that they are rather dark!

[Wopelka]

Every single one of those fake console shots makes me sick to my stomach now that I'm using Tracktion. What a waste of time they are for a mouse-pusher like me. Unless you've got a control surface connected to your machine; where you can use your 4 fingers and 2 thumbs to shove sliders up and down, the console view is a true waste of programming and screen space.

Now if I had a control surface, that would be a different story. But without one, the fakey GUI-only versions are all just eye candy and really get in the way of getting things done with a mouse and automation curves as the main way to fade and fly effects and such.

Tracktion has it's warts but I fly about 3 times faster now with it; without all the clutter of the other 'faking hardware' hosts; fancy and as expensive as they may be.

So pHz, I'm with you; I'll take screenshot #2 from your post.

-Scott

i'm glad that you're happy with your all-in-one-screen Traktion. However...

Personally, i never liked the way Traktion handel things, and the lack of a proper mixer console is probably one of the worst point for me.

Not that i don't like unusual way of working - i'm a FL Studio fan, mind you.

so i disagree: the console view is NOT a true waste of programming and screen space.

[Wopelka]

i like Sonar's mixer.

but that's the one i have, so i may be biased.

[Ja.x]

Best view? You mean like this:

[VicDiesel]

Best view? You mean like this:

White text on light gray background. Yeah, that's a winner.

[rockstar_not]

For you perhaps, Scott, but personally I think we're lucky to have the choice. Different approaches depending on what works best for you, etc.

It's no coincidence that Pro Tools and Reason are so popular with a number of experienced "name" artists - the hardware emulation means that they can instantly understand the mixing paradigm without refering to the manual.

For those who don't come from a studio/hardware background, though, I think that programs such as Tracktion might make more sense "out-of-the-box".

The other point to bear in mind is that the particular layout and ergonimics of the hardware mixing desk didn't develop by chance... the layout of a studio mixing desk is designed for clarity and comfort, and there are many aspects of this that I would say translate into the software environment quite well.

For example, the use of Aux Send/Return bussing on a hardware mixer allowed for a single hardware reverb, for example, to be used across a mix. In a software environment this approach works equally well, enabling you to conserve CPU by running a single reverb instance, and helping you to get a consistent sound across your mix.

This is a good example for another reason... you cite Tracktion as your prefered mixing environment, but as a Tracktion user myself I find its aux send/return implementation a clumsy afterthought as added in version 2. The simple send/return setup in Ableton Live (and others, of course) is much quicker to use, at least for me.

Throwing out the beneficial lessons learnt over decades in the hardware environment - for the sake of claiming originality or being novel - is not the same as making progress

I agree in general.

I use mixing desks when I run live sound - I understand the benefits of having one. I'm usually using Allen & Heath desks when I do this - very nice boards. I just find that it's quite fumbly to 'mix' in a software environment when I'm clicking and pushing a mouse.

Regarding the ergonomics of hardware mixing desks: I don't find that the ergonomics are all that great in a large hardware mix desk like the one posted earlier in the thread. I think it would take 2 or 3 engineers riding the faders to properly manage a desk like that one in one sitting. The linear horizontal layout requires it. Some curvature would help.

There is no argument that someone who has years of experience mixing on a large desk would find a GUI version of the same more familiar.

Tracktion likely will never get equal respect until such time that there are more folks that started with something like Tracktion (not many, granted) who actually produce some hit records and get written up in Mix / Sound on Sound / etc. I'm not holding my breath that this will happen any time soon

Seeing a sea of windows as an advert for a host just quickly makes me sick to my stomach now.

The send/return weakness of Tracktion is one of the warts I wish were different, but I have not found it to be a hindrance in any way.

My main task that always was the slowest thing for me was getting my ideas into the PC in a work-able form. Now I spend quite little time actually mixing / messing around with a mix. I think the lack of a 'proper' mix console actually has removed that paradigm from my workflow in a positive way.

I'll never be a producer. I'm too old to get started in that field. I'm just a hack trying to get bits of sonic ideas out for friends and family to have a listen to. For this purpose, the lack of the desk is a boon.

-Scott

[BONES]

Looks nice, but what a waste of screen space. Those EQs take up half the screen.

Being able to see and compare your EQ settings for each channel is perhaps the most important aspect of a good mixer layout and my top priority. Half the screen is the minimum appropriate space.

But without one, the fakey GUI-only versions are all just eye candy and really get in the way of getting things done with a mouse and automation curves as the main way to fade and fly effects and such.

Unless you have been looking at similar structures for 20-odd years, in which case the merest glance is all that's required to get a full picture of what's going on.
Anyway, not one of those screenshots compares in any way to these:

You know why? Because they represent my ideal GUI as both eXT and ORION allow me to give it the exact look, and in ORION's case the perfect layout, for my needs. Nothing else comes close to that kind of flexibility.

[Kriminal]

Dunno how you use that, way too dark for me.

[pHz]

way too dark for me.

and thats the point i guess ...

... none too dark

slainte rob

[headquest]

I agree in general.

Yeah, in fact I think we are both coming from about the same place

I just find that it's quite fumbly to 'mix' in a software environment when I'm clicking and pushing a mouse.

I use a control surface anyway,... alongside the mouse though. For me the focus is on using my ears and automating stuff. I think that both Ableton and Tracktion are particularly good for this, because of the way they present automation information straight on top of the sequence/waveform.

I also do projects in Adobe Audition, which allows for similar automation. The mixer paradigm in Audition suffers though imho from the lack of an effects slot on the Master channel... it means you need to route everything through a bus whether you want to or not. Also busses have to be chained,... so in general I find Ableton the most flexible and efficient of the three (for my way of working at least).

Regarding the ergonomics of hardware mixing desks: I don't find that the ergonomics are all that great in a large hardware mix desk like the one posted earlier in the thread. I think it would take 2 or 3 engineers riding the faders to properly manage a desk like that one in one sitting. The linear horizontal layout requires it. Some curvature would help.

Yeah. That's the advantage of the automation you get in a software environment... and one good reason why software can move beyond the hardware mixing paradigm (while retaining its strengths though).

Tracktion likely will never get equal respect until such time that there are more folks that started with something like Tracktion (not many, granted) who actually produce some hit records and get written up in Mix / Sound on Sound / etc. I'm not holding my breath that this will happen any time soon

Agreed, I think we're some way from that yet, mostly because it's still the norm for established artists to work in a hardware studio (normally ProTools). Tracktion's most likely route to making a similar impact is probably the Mackie hardware integration angle. But most of the latest Mackie hardware is getting poor/mixed press reviews at present...

Seeing a sea of windows as an advert for a host just quickly makes me sick to my stomach now.

I'm right with you there! That is the big turn off with Cubase SX as far as I'm concerned. Post-Cubase, I demoed Sonar which seems to have an almost identical multi-window workflow. The instrument panel, seperation of Audio/MIDI etc required much more complex (traditional hardware paradigm) routing... but without the physical units to wire together, it requires a fair degree of mental gymnastics to visualise all the llinks between one screen and another. Yuk!

HOWEVER...

I think that the software programs that remove a mixer console in their attempt to simplify things introduce different problems in the process. I'm thinking not only of Tracktion but also Project5 v2. My feeling is that in both you can end up with quite a cluttered working environment as a result of forcing all the functionality into one window.

The compromise is to use a two-window setup, as Ableton and ProTools both do. Or a customiseable workspace, as FL Studio, Acid, Audition, etc do. I think this allows for a simpler workflow than Cubase/Sonar, but without compromising functionality (in the way that Tracktion does with send/return, etc).

The send/return weakness of Tracktion is one of the warts I wish were different, but I have not found it to be a hindrance in any way.

I did/do find it a hindrance actually. But not a really major one. I end up putting a whole string of effects onto the master channel and hoping for the best, but this doesn't give such good results as I get in Ableton, because not all tracks require the same amount of reverb, for example. The alternative is to put a seperate reverb on each track, in which case you need to freeze to conserve CPU.... and then you can't adjust the level/pan meters to do further mixing. So it becomes a real drag at that point.

[--JT--]

[Michael Allan Cumming]

I love Cubase SX but I think it's ugly as sin. On an aesthetic level it's a nightmare and on a functionality level it varies from "good" to "headache".

Ableton Live is unparalleled in terms of austere slickness. Podium is also nice but has a bit of a "homemade" feel.