Why -3?

[stash98]

yes, but why would you want your premastered mix to be at dead 0? Normalizing puts in artifacts that are worse then the "render bug" everybody flipped over.

Also, People were just saying too that brick walling the 2 bus is a bad way to go about things. I agree completely. Lowering the volume on your 2 bus still doesn't fix the fact that you have something in your mix that is a problem.

I enjoy these discussions, beause I spend a ton of time in studios other then my own working with guys who have made some great records. That is how I learned to mix, and I believe they know what they are doing. So when I put out my side, I appreciate at least having a normal conversation, other then being called names. So thanks for veering it back on track.

[valley]

yes, but why would you want your premastered mix to be at dead 0?

Depends: if you are doing a 24bit or 32bit export, you probably wouldn't care. On the other hand, if you are doing a 16bit export, ideally you want to use as many of those bits as is physically possible.

The mastering stage will work at 32bits anyway, so you aren't sacrificing headroom you'll need later, just making the most of the limitations you face now. That said, if you are intending to master after export, then export at 24bits or higher so you don't need to worry about normalising anyway.

Normalizing puts in artifacts that are worse then the "render bug" everybody flipped over.

Not true. Normalizing an audio file that is already bounced to 16bit will add audible (for small values of audible) noise. Normalizing a 32bit audio file *during* the bounce down to 16bits will not add *any* audible noise, and would measure at lower than -140dB. That's the whole point of working at 32bits. You can raise or lower the level of a 32bit floating point value a whole lot of times before significant errors start to occur.

And if you are still freaked by the idea, turn on 64bit mixing, and move the issue into the realms of non-existant.

Also, People were just saying too that brick walling the 2 bus is a bad way to go about things. I agree completely. Lowering the volume on your 2 bus still doesn't fix the fact that you have something in your mix that is a problem.

Well that depends what the problem is. If the problem is transient peaks, then no, you'd want to deal with that on a track basis. If the problem is simply that the overall mix is hitting teh master section too hot, then pulling down the master fader is exactly the way to deal with the problem.

I think much of the confusion here is that some people are talking about treating occasional peaks (IE compression), and others are simply talking about the ability to work as if you have infinite headrom right up until the signal has passed through teh master fader.

[stash98]

I agree with a lot of that, but I have never had a mix hit the master channel too hot that was mixed well. Also, I alway mix w/ mastering in mind, so I have never tried to get anything that loud.

[Lunch Money]

I think some people are arguing on the same side and not even knowing it.

For me, it's prudent to get the mix under control without hard limiting. That way, as stash mentions, your master bus is at a decent level in preparation for the export stage. If you WANT some squishiness from hard limiting or compressing, you can always mix so that you're into the 'reds' a bit and then throw your limiter on.

But what do I know?

I don't even understand what the argument is anymore. My only point back on p. 1 was a counter-argument to Ron's technique of fader at 0 and limiter at -0.1db, which is surely a recipe for sloppy mixing unless that's what he's throwing on AFTER he's already got the individual tracks/mix busses under control, in which case it's perfectly fine.

I don't know if anybody even knows what they're arguing about anymore. I sure don't!!

Back to the very very beginning-- once you start piling tracks up, surely you're going to be quickly busting through "0db" anyhow and backing off either the individual tracks or the master fader. With the master fader backed off right from the beginning, it's just a little bit more wiggle room before you have to start fine-tuning individual track levels again. As long as the tracks are at the right level relative to each other, it doesn't matter a bit what the master fader's at.

Er... more unrelated points-- I think people can't stand the 'sound' of a quiet track. It doesn't sound lively yet. They're impatient. Instead of just sitting tight while the drums are at -9dB, they want to hear it "in their faces" first. Screw that, I'd rather get at least the drums, bass, main accompanying instrument, and vox in the mix so that they're just tickling 0db without any compression or limiting on the master bus (though there may certainly be some in the individual tracks, and there SHOULD be some already if you plan on using it!).

That said, it's only a quick drag to get it back down to minus whatever dB after you've boosted it up in order to give yourself your 'comfortable levels'; I just don't have any need to trick myself into equating volume with sound quality because I'm already a poor enough engineer without casting illusions on myself.

Greg

PS, Ron got sonned.

[djsubject]

well my 2p

before T1 i was on logic 5.5

now logic 5 & any meter hitting red = sound brakedown (only said from what i here) dont get me wrong! somtimes it was nice, but mostly a big pain in the fanny (not that i have one of my own)

i have done tests (by ere only) with 64bit mixing enabled in T2 where the red lights never came off on the track VU's (even the high hats )

turned the master down to a forgotton verry lo level to stop it peaking & the mix was the same as it was before i added 3 volume controls to each track & set them to full,

so it depends on your tools!

logic 5.5 not to hot on the mix

analog stuff, as hot as you can get wothout peaking (unless it has some valves or tubes in there )

T2, just dont let the master peak & your good to go




DISCLAMER!!!!!!!

all thet BS posted abouve is only my own vues & should not be tryed at home wothout a perant or gardian present

Ski Rize Studio's is in no way responcible for any bad quality mix's that come from your studio

(or any of the spelling mistakes in this post )


Subz

[djsubject]

verry good mixing tips from lunch money!!!!!

if your new to this mixing game & want tips on how to get started, he just said it

only thing i would add is, if you want punch? turn the speakers up!!! (& make shure those fliping windows sounds are disabled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

AGAIN!!!! IMO


Subz

[stash98]

Yeah, I agree with Lunch Money. I pretty much go about it the same exact way as him from the sound of it.

[mandolarian]

I just read a hideous 10 page article in FM on mixing and how to do it, "The Right Way". Mixing is so content sensitive that any formula is only a formula for disaster. A diversity of techniques and sounds is a wonderous thing. We don't need more mono-culture, thank you very much. The tools we have in the digital realm are so liberating. You can smack the master bus or not and still sound great.

So to all of you on both sides of the fence or the brick wall limiter, I salute you. Viva La Difference!

/RANT ON
The final level issue is bit personal today, as I've just remixed some tracks for my band. Acoustic guitar/Oud/violin world beat music with drums, some punch and dynamics. And it breathes dynamically.

But the mastering engineer is whining that the levels are not 'Industry Standard' (WTF?) and wants to squash the life out of it. He wants a crest factor of only 6-8 dB!!! We're not a def metal Oud band! Moron!

Perhaps brickwall limiters and multi-band comps can only be purchased after a background check, a valid Katz license and declaration not to inflict more than 10 continuous square waves per song.

Whew, need to vent. I agree with Lunch too. If you really want it louder, use the frikkin' volume control. At least that gives the listener a choice.
/RANT OFF

Now, more than ever, if it sounds good, it is good.

[djsubject]

Now, more than ever, if it sounds good, it is good.

BINGO!!!!!

[stash98]

Mando, for the record your mastering guy is the polar opposite of any I have worked with. You may want to shop those mixes around and see who else can do it how you would like.

[IIRs]

But the mastering engineer is whining that the levels are not 'Industry Standard' (WTF?) and wants to squash the life out of it. He wants a crest factor of only 6-8 dB!!! We're not a def metal Oud band! Moron!

Sack him.

Perhaps brickwall limiters and multi-band comps can only be purchased after a background check, a valid Katz license and declaration not to inflict more than 10 continuous square waves per song.

Agreed 100% !!!

[valley]

Perhaps brickwall limiters and multi-band comps can only be purchased after a background check, a valid Katz license and declaration not to inflict more than 10 continuous square waves per song.

Sir, if you run for office, you have my vote.

[IIRs]

Kind of goes against the bundled Final Mix though

[Lunch Money]

Bah, you know as well as anyone that a tool like Final Mix doesn't have to work that way.

What a great day for me so far... I think that's 3 people agreeing with me and making me feel as though I know something about something.

Greg

[valley]

You'd be amazed how infrequently I use compression or limiting. I know when I'm likely to do more harm than good.