but it would be nice if you could see the track levels all in one go, so this would seem a good compromise...Big output meters?
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- KVRist
- 457 posts since 14 Aug, 2001
Considering how you can have a big meter view for input levels, why isn't it possible to do the same with the output levels? I know the 'm' word is bad news to many here but it would be nice if you could see the track levels all in one go, so this would seem a good compromise...
but it would be nice if you could see the track levels all in one go, so this would seem a good compromise...-
- KVRAF
- 1600 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Seattle, WA
Yeah, was honestly supposed to be there for T2 but didn't quite get finished. On the list though.
Ben
Ben
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
You're asking for two different things actually: big meters for outputs might make sense.. but you really want big level meters for tracks don't you! I usually delete those..
If we're into feature requests though how about implementing K-system metering for the master section? I'm sorted myself now (I just bought InspectorXL
) but a K14 or K12 type meter would make using mastering tools such as Final Mix much easier, and would probably do more to improve Tracktion mixes than any number of fancy channel strip or reverb plugs! 
As T2 already offers a choice between RMS and peak metering, with selectable decay times, it might be a simple matter of displaying both on the same properly calibrated scale.. (maybe there is more to it that I'm unaware of though
)
If we're into feature requests though how about implementing K-system metering for the master section? I'm sorted myself now (I just bought InspectorXL
) but a K14 or K12 type meter would make using mastering tools such as Final Mix much easier, and would probably do more to improve Tracktion mixes than any number of fancy channel strip or reverb plugs! As T2 already offers a choice between RMS and peak metering, with selectable decay times, it might be a simple matter of displaying both on the same properly calibrated scale.. (maybe there is more to it that I'm unaware of though
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 457 posts since 14 Aug, 2001
I just want a way of seeing the levels of all tracks in one go and I know that most people around here don't want a mixer, so I figured that by doing something similar to the big input meters for all the track levels would be a decent compromise...I presume that is what is on list that Beno mentioned.
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 10 Apr, 2003 from Bed, mainly
Just out of interest, there's a new Raw Material Software plugin just round the corner called PPMulator. We were going to wait a week or so before mentioning it, but seeing as it's you...
It's a VST that closely-emulates both bargraph and box-and-needle broadcast PPM meters and has configurable ballistics, a scaleable display and even a peak-logging feature which keeps a track of overloads in your mix and where they happened.
There's a preliminary webpage for it here if anyone's interested... and are these meters below big enough for everyone?!
And seeing as it's programmed by the the great Julian Storer himself, it works beautifully in Tracktion!
Philip
Ex-Head of Metering,
Raw Material Software
It's a VST that closely-emulates both bargraph and box-and-needle broadcast PPM meters and has configurable ballistics, a scaleable display and even a peak-logging feature which keeps a track of overloads in your mix and where they happened.
There's a preliminary webpage for it here if anyone's interested... and are these meters below big enough for everyone?!
And seeing as it's programmed by the the great Julian Storer himself, it works beautifully in Tracktion!
Philip
Ex-Head of Metering,
Raw Material Software
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Looks nice! Any chance of adding a peak to average ratio mode? (ie: the difference between peak & RMS levels, useful when judging compression)philip wrote: Just out of interest, there's a new Raw Material Software plugin just round the corner called PPMulator. We were going to wait a week or so before mentioning it, but seeing as it's you...
They would be much more useful with a K-system scale..philip wrote:and are these meters below big enough for everyone?!
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 10 Apr, 2003 from Bed, mainly
Nope! Not a chance! PPMulator will just do what Nordic Scale, DIN 45406 and BBC/EBU Type IIa/b meters do, which is conform to IEC 268-10 and nothing else...IIRs wrote:Looks nice! Any chance of adding a peak to average ratio mode? (ie: the difference between peak & RMS levels, useful when judging compression).
In my experience doing broadcast sound work on laptops and home PCs, it's impossible to gauge how loud your (pre)mixes actually are without access to a properly-calibrated BBC PPM meter. You're spot-on, IIRs, about the K-System - it looks like the way forward - but it's still a long way off for UK broadcast, and in the meantime digital dBfs peak meters, VUs and bargraphs tell you nothing about comparitive loudness.
That's not to say we won't do an all-singing, all-dancing level analysis plugin in the future, but until then, PPMulator just does one simple job and - although I say it myself - does it very well!
...and it's only twenty quid...
Philip Ex-Head of PPM Meters,
Raw Material Software
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Bargain! But I bought Inspector XL literally yesterday..philip wrote: ...and it's only twenty quid...
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
So, Tracktion can lead the way and bring it to the masses! I would argue its actually essential in these days of free and affordable brick-wall limiting..philip wrote:the K-System - it looks like the way forward - but it's still a long way off for UK broadcast,
<edit> it just occurred to me: you could integrate the K-System metering with future monitor controllers like the Big Knob, to provide calibrated monitor gain..
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 10 Apr, 2003 from Bed, mainly
Okay, here's a deal - as soon as I do a job in a UK post-production studio that uses K-System meters, I'll buy Julian a packet of crisps and a half of shandy and get him to add it to PPMulator!
Until then, for music at least, The Loudness Race is set to continue...
Philip
Ex-Head of New Standards,
Raw Material Software
Until then, for music at least, The Loudness Race is set to continue...
Philip
Ex-Head of New Standards,
Raw Material Software
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- KVRAF
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
somebody please explain to me what the difference in the current metering system that we have and this new one?
what new functionality will it bring me in perfecting my mixes?
i like to use L2 to get the "loud" mixes when a client wants one. will this tell me if im screwing it all up? will this tell me the real story as opposed to the current meters in T2?
i am sorry, i just don't understand. please explain.
my apologies for being ignorant of some of the finer points of metering. i know a good bit, but this discussion just went right over my head for some reason. and it made me feel absolutely stupid...
what new functionality will it bring me in perfecting my mixes?
i like to use L2 to get the "loud" mixes when a client wants one. will this tell me if im screwing it all up? will this tell me the real story as opposed to the current meters in T2?
i am sorry, i just don't understand. please explain.
my apologies for being ignorant of some of the finer points of metering. i know a good bit, but this discussion just went right over my head for some reason. and it made me feel absolutely stupid...
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
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- KVRist
- 102 posts since 10 Apr, 2003 from Bed, mainly
Basically, broadcast PPM meters (like the ones that PPMulator, erm, emulates) are an international standard for metering. If you use a BBC PPM meter for example (also known as an IEC 268-10 Type IIa) then if your mix hovers around the '4' and '5' markings on it and touches, but doesn't go over, the '6' line, then when it's played back on TV it'll sound the same as everything else on TV.lharless wrote:somebody please explain to me what the difference in the current metering system that we have and this new one?
These meters have been around for decades and, frankly, aren't very good. A PPM meter will miss the same short peaks and 'spikes' in your mix that Tracktion's big digital meters will show up as overloads. For that reason, things mixed using PPM meters tend to be a bit louder, because they are more forgiving of sudden short peaks and don't display them as overloads.
PPMulator was designed to closely-mirror the response times, ballistics and even faults of a real PPM meter, so that if you mix using it, your resultant soundfile will be at a known-good level for TV broadcast.
It's true that other digital meters, like Inspector, will give you more accurate readings of your mix, but what they won't guarantee, is that if you were to play that mix back on TV, it would be at an acceptable level.
To sum up, PPM meters aren't better than any other type of meters, they're just a standard type of meter, universally-accepted in post-production studios. That's why we did it!
Hope this makes a bit more sense - don't worry, if you only ever do music in Tracktion and never need to supply your mixes to a TV company, then there's nothing much PPMulator will give you over other types of meter...
...except it's cheap, looks really cool and will help keep Jules in teabags and sandwiches for a while...
Philip
Ex-Head of Explanations
Raw Material Software
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- KVRAF
- 1600 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Seattle, WA
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
<withholds comment about Jules and teabags>
