Feature suggestion for EVE 2! beta 1 available

[Bassballjg]

cool! just yesterday I was thinking of asking here again about the possible EVE 2 features,
there are so many directions we could take since EVE right now is a quite complete VSTi
as for its design was: "vintage keyboards stacker", and I stress *keyboards*, not *synths*,

the synths samples were added to the Library as options but the core of EVE
is always meant to be EPs, organs, combo keyboards (Solina, Mellotron)

so no VCFs, only envelope, tremelo, vibrato, pan, vintage audio effects.

So now going for EVE 2 many of you asked for controlled filters, but honestly I don't like that
very much, just another boring VA sample based synth?, <wink>


here are my thoughts so far about EVE 2,
replying to Cabinfever list,

- top quality filters

quality yes, but no VCFs (LP/HP, rezo, ADSR stuff)

- modular effects

yes, at least the 2 slots

- better lfo options and extreme lfo speeds

yes, great idea, BTW do you use the LFO Masters?,
thinking to remove that section to make space

- cross-modulation between oscillators

ah!, here is where I thought the most, I already thought about some
way of morphing between the OSCs.


Moreover, some Additive features could be nice, but could rise CPUs usage too much,


well, let's hear You again

Luigi, I do see what you mean about the core mission for which EVE was built, and why you wouldn't want to stray too far from it. But I do think that with the fact that so much is available in both DASHsnd and WusikSND formats, that mission has signifigantly grown into EVE being an attractive alternative as a general-purpose sample playback synth, or rompler if you like. So in that context, I think that a little more variety and sophistication in the available filter and effects choices would be a good thing. Think of it as classics-to-the-future, the ability to extend and expand the sound palate of synthesis based on that core set of keyboard sounds. An extention of those sounds forward not as museum pieces but as living tools in contemporary styles of all sorts.

I'd personally like to have the effects section of EVE ONE, and its multimode filter in EVE 2. The really great thing about EVE is its build quality, its sound quality and its simplicity and ease of use. I think that these aspects would not be compromised by adding filters or more effects. Rather, the user experience of EVE would be greatly enhanced.

[Cabinfever]

Isn't it often the way that our most-loved creations take on a life of their own and refuse to submit ?

Eve may have begun as a keyboard machine, but hasn't it grown past that ? I've always thought of Eve as a retro machine - that is both keys & synths. Certainly that's what the available sound banks seem to imply.

And also, isn't the success of a keys-themed vsti going to depend almost 100% on the quality of the samples ? In that regard Eve may or may not become a great keys machine, but it won't happen because of a filter or two, or some extra knobs, it'll happen because of the add-on sample support.

But that's not what's being discussed here is it ? Sample content is a separate area of marketing.

So if you want a great keys machine then Eve is already just about all you need and instead I'd go away and think about brilliant sample content.

But I'm hoping you won't do that.

Personally I think Eve's great strength is thick pads at extremely low CPU cost.

For example, I use Z3ta+ quite a bit, but never for pads. The thing is just way too CPU hungry. For me it might as well be a mono synth. But Eve is the opposite. It's perfect for multi-note sustained pads.

So there's the first area I'd think about improving even further: the big theme pad sounds and what's required in terms of functionality and controls to really enhance that. A *really* heavy phaser and advanced delay module could help. A super-slow LFO and perhaps an on-board noise source.

Second thing that Eve is exceptionally good at is combining the three different layers. (I'll call them oscillators for now).

That functionality again points to pads, but it also points to interesting evolving sounds. Of course being sample-based that's a huge help there too.

The ultimate extension to that is something which could take on Absynth. In fact there are some interesting similarities between the two instruments, even if the approach is rather different.

It's that sound-fx / ambient / offbeat / lead area which I think could be really enhanced by some sort of cross-modulation relationship between oscillators and the extreme high-and-low-speed LFOs mentioned in the previous post. Those sort of controls offer a lot more interesting (and unique) audio possibilities than your typical synth controls.

Get the three oscillators really interacting more than just a simple pan / volume / key range relationship. Get the sum being greater than the parts.

And personally I could forget about multimode filters so long as the basic LPF & resonance controls were excellent. And if you want to avoid the "usual VA" trap them let's not even go near trance gates, arpegiators, on-board reverbs and the now common-as-muck modulation matrix.

Likewise i find the whole "morphing" idea cute, but dull. I haven't seen anywhere that it results in anything more than a lame sort of colourless mixture. To me you start with the most interesting sounds and the more you morph the more they lose their character and dissolve into a muddy mess. Additive ? More boring and "inhuman" than cold toast for dinner.

One idea might be multi-stage envelopes. Or even just a single multi-stage envelope (with snap to host tempo grid of course). Maybe you could assign the three oscillators to come in at different points on the single master multistage envelope. That could lead to both very complex realitic keyboard sounds (with separate attack, sustain and decay sounds), as well as some very weird effects & ambient possibilities.

But above all, let's keep it simple. Just a couple of really good ideas that are well executed, not a grab-bag of standard VA extras that every "big" synth has. Eve is fast & friendly and should stay that way.

[Cabinfever]

so liqih, where's your thinking heading ?

[liqih]

Think of it as classics-to-the-future, the ability to extend and expand the sound palate of synthesis based on that core set of keyboard sounds. An extention of those sounds forward not as museum pieces but as living tools in contemporary styles of all sorts.

well put John

I'd personally like to have the effects section of EVE ONE, and its multimode filter in EVE 2. The really great thing about EVE is its build quality, its sound quality and its simplicity and ease of use. I think that these aspects would not be compromised by adding filters or more effects. Rather, the user experience of EVE would be greatly enhanced.

thnaks, yes no doubt on enhancing the FX section,
and I'm starting to see the filters option

[liqih]

Isn't it often the way that our most-loved creations take on a life of their own and refuse to submit ?

at that point I would let her to live her life,
"go away from house!" LOL


[agreed words skipped]

But that's not what's being discussed here is it ? Sample content is a separate area of marketing.

So if you want a great keys machine then Eve is already just about all you need and instead I'd go away and think about brilliant sample content.

But I'm hoping you won't do that.

Personally I think Eve's great strength is thick pads at extremely low CPU cost.

that's one point to choose: keys machine or pad synth

A *really* heavy phaser and advanced delay module could help. A super-slow LFO and perhaps an on-board noise source.

which kind of noise source? noise+vcf+vca ?

The ultimate extension to that is something which could take on Absynth. In fact there are some interesting similarities between the two instruments, even if the approach is rather different.

ah, never thought it could compare to Absynth

[agreed words skipped]

Likewise i find the whole "morphing" idea cute, but dull. I haven't seen anywhere that it results in anything more than a lame sort of colourless mixture. To me you start with the most interesting sounds and the more you morph the more they lose their character and dissolve into a muddy mess. Additive ? More boring and "inhuman" than cold toast for dinner.

I guess you don't like ImpOscar?, <grin>


My idea so far is for the "pad synth" over the "keys machine", mainly for the size of the good samples,

for the "pad synth" I see two options:

1) enhanced LFOs, integrated generators FM and Noise, few more FXs
2) enhanced LFOs, syncable multistage envelopes for each Osc, few more FXs

as you see to keep EVE simple I would not do both integrated generators AND multistage envelopes.

As for the "morphing" or cross-modulation feature it could fit maybe with the integrated generators.

Still thiking.

[liqih]

envelope freely syncable and loopable,
good?

[pw]

I wish I saw this thread sooner!

I agree with Cabinfever about one thing in particular: EVE = Retro machine. With that in mind, my preferences are for an extreme focus on effects quality and vintage emulation in this regard (the phaser is great, the others need some work).

As for the filters- why not keep the current ones, maybe with dials for cut and rez, and just add a few filters with envelopes in the effects slots? Kinda like the one you added for 1.8, but..better, and with adsr.

Also, effects slots should each be able to load any effect, and should be able to be switched in the signal chain.

Apart from this, what I really want is detailed, quality sample sets, in the tradition of the mellotron and the F1SR. That is, sample sets focussed on particular synths, with detailed sampling, rather than sample sets with a whole grab of stuff. When are BITR gonna realease that solina set for EVE? This is the type of thing I mean. Fairlight and Orchestron would also be good and very unique addition if you could somehow get some good, extensive samples, as would a extensively detailed rhodes set.

Cross modulation sounds good too.

I want the ultimate one stop retro box.

[Bassballjg]

As much as I love multistage syncable envelopes, if forced to choose, I'd take the generators, because there is a lack of serious oscilator cross-mod in sample-playback synths. WE has it, but lacks control to do anything subtle with it. But, as log as we're getting upgraded lfos and effects, I'll take either option. Or both

I don't see EVE as a competitor for Absynth, or anything that deep. But as it has eveolved to being mnore than a vintage keys player only, it needs simple but effective sonic flexibility, to be a machine for layering and processing samples quick and easy but profoundly. Just filters, effects and some oscilator cross-mod and a traditional architecture. And yes, vintage sounds should continue to be the focus of the core factory soundset.

The more vintage soundsets the better, I'd say. But my attitude is "samples? bring 'em on". All I want from EVE is more. It's all about the soundsets, and having an engine that lets you do musically intersting and useful things with them. What this virtual instrument world needs is a good, simple but sonically powerful sample player, easy to use but with all the tools you need to make it a real synthesizer.

[dhanjit]

What this virtual instrument world needs is a good, simple but sonically powerful sample player, easy to use but with all the tools you need to make it a real synthesizer.

Spot on.

[Cabinfever]

In the mockup does that indicate six or nine multistage envelopes ? That's more than I'd ever fiddle with. Also the multiple-pages / hidden envelopes thing is very "non-Eve". Much too complex.

I'd imagine something where you just have one multistage envelope in total. Under that you'd have something a bit like the keyrange sliders. But instead of keyrange, the sliders would control when each oscillator "activated" during the envelope.

The user would slide the range of each oscillator to match the area in the envelope where that oscillator would play. (Of course the range would have to scale in proportion to the envelope display).

If the oscillators overlapped then one sound would crossfade into the other in that portion of the envelope. If there was no overlap then the sound would "switch" from one to the other.

The problem would be what happened to each oscillators sound after it played through its portion of the multistage envelope. In that case I'd imagine that each osicllator would have a basic ADSR of its own (like Eve One) and the "release" portion would be activated.

You could also just assign one or two oscillators to the envelope, and have the other one(s) operate as normal with their existing basic ADSR envelope.

The advantage to this idea is that you'd still keep everything visible on one page, have the power of a multistage, but not dazzle people with pages and pages of envelopes which they'd probably never use anyway.

The point of it would really be to give sample set builders some interesting options. I imagine soundsets built specially with an attack, sustain and release sounds that would be programmed to fit along the single multistage.

The use for pad sounds and ambience is pretty obvious.

Instead of masses of envelope options you'd ahve the brilliant "wizard". In that you have basic pads, trance-gate style rhythmic shapes, and a range of instrument-style attack-sustain-release constructions for strings, brass, plucked etc.

Imagine soundsets of plucked guitar with associated enevlope, but you then start pulling out the sustain portiona nd replacing it with a new sound...

I know I've mentioned this before, but I think the multistage enevlope idea needs something that keeps the beauty of eve, that is:

- simple
- fast
- one-page GUI

Just adding multiple pages of multistage envelopes would destroy the simplicity of Eve.

Also, if we just had one envelope, then hopefully we could still get cross-modulation between sociallators !

On other matters:

On the GUI example posted a few entries above, there's TWO velocity sensitivity knobs for each osc, yet only one tiny fader for resonance. I'd rather see a resonance knob and a tiny fader for velocity with an amp/filt selector switch.

In fact I think that whole area could be radically overhauled. For example, why not get rid of the giant three-knob EQ area and just decide that if you want EQ on a channel you can drop in one of the EQ effect units ? Good soundsets shouldn't need heavy EQ on every sound.

Likewise I think the "key" knobs are overkill and could be made much more subtle. Some people must love them but it's a blue moon I ever touch them.

[pw]

I like Cabinfever's ideas of keeping simplicity a key feature of EVE.

[liqih]

thanks guys for the feeback, anyother user like to share his/her thoughts?


so we have some options (in no order) we should stream down:

1) EVE = Retro machine, extreme focus on effects quality and vintage emulation, filters FXs, detailed sampling
2) EVE with one multistage envelope (amplitude?) with triggers to sequence the OSCs which still keep the individual ADSR, Pad oriented EVE, one-page GUI
3) EVE + 9 multistage envelope: amp, filter and pitch for each Osc
4) EVE with internal generators, oscillator cross-mod (?), more than a vintage keys player only,


also you wrote:
"simple but sonically powerful sample player, easy to use but with all the tools you need to make it a real synthesizer"

ok, but how?, <grin>
hard to be simple and sonically powerful at the same time,
the nine multistage envelopes I propose in the mock-up are perhaps not simple
but very powerful

BTW please explain what you technically mean with cross-mod

In fact I think that whole area could be radically overhauled. For example, why not get rid of the giant three-knob EQ area and just decide that if you want EQ on a channel you can drop in one of the EQ effect units ? Good soundsets shouldn't need heavy EQ on every sound.

the EQ has proven to be very usefull in EVE preset design, since when layering sounds
you usually need to differentiate the spectrum to avoid muddines,
visually they can be smaller for sure, same for the other knobs,
I didn't thought much about the upper area in the mock-up,

[pw]

i also hope some other users jump in here with their thoughts. In regards to what has been thrown around up till now, my thoughts are thus:

-In general, I really see EVE as a very effective *concept* of vintage keys (and synths) that should remain a focus. I think that turning this in to a general purpose rompler detracts from the elegance of the concept. Also, the one page GUI is a godsend, frankly, in these days of ubersynths.

-Regarding the envelopes, I suggest keep the current ADSR's for the 3 layers, they are quick and functional. As an addition to this, I like Cabinfever's idea of the *one* multistage envelope for Amplitude that the three layers can be dynamically sent to. kind of vector synthesis, but simple and fitting with the EVE design and concept.

- Effects- This is what is always lacking on medium budget synths, and I think great effects with a vintage focus can greatly enhance the EVE concept. You guys already have some great stuff with the tremelo, phaser and delays, and distortions in EVE ONE and EVE 1.8. I think the chorus and rotary can be improved, especially the chorus. Effect additions could be- harmonizer, 2pole and 4 pole LPF's *with* ADSR, amp, spring reverb.

- I would keep the EQ as it is now, I like it and it is useful in layering.

- I am not that interested in internal generators- a larger selection of basic waveforms from vintage synths with sampling at smaller intervals over the entire keyboard range are as good as coded oscialltors IMO- many great VSTi synths use wavetables anyway as their 'oscillators'.

All in all, I am sure that wherever you guys go with EVE 2, it will provide some interesting advances over EVE.

[Cabinfever]

I like pw's "refining" of the ideas so far. I see the use of EQ also now... The only thing I'd like to add is the "cross-modulation" idea. If anyone remembers the Korg Mono/Poly, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of.

And don't forget the super-slow / superfast LFO speeds

[pw]

I like pw's "refining" of the ideas so far. I see the use of EQ also now... The only thing I'd like to add is the "cross-modulation" idea. If anyone remembers the Korg Mono/Poly, that's the sort of thing I'm thinking of.

And don't forget the super-slow / superfast LFO speeds

yes- I forgot to mention the LFO's I particularly want very slow ones.