Someone on Hosts was saying T (not sure if it's 1 or 2 he meant) had inferiour piano roll functionality, and he compared it to FL Studio, which he thought was better in that area.
I'm relatively new to DAW MIDI editing but it's fast becoming a way of life. I have T2 and so far, except for a few niggles and perhaps some of the bugs that have already been discussed, I think it's easy and intuitive.
Just interested in other people's opinions, particualrly those who have broad experience with piano roll type sequencing and editing in a variety of hosts, about how T2 stacks up in this department.
Thanks much,
Dave
T2 and MIDI piano roll, your opinions?
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- KVRAF
- 1933 posts since 29 Apr, 2005 from Beyond all space, time, and dimension.
Here is my small version:
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PLEASE VISIT www.thehungersite.com DAILY AND CLICK THE LINKS. THEY DONATE MONEY TO CHARITY BASED ON AD INCOME. IT'S FREE!
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
IMO, all thats lacking from the T2 midi editor is
1) easy navagation around the paino roll
2) a midi volisity pen tool
Subz
1) easy navagation around the paino roll
2) a midi volisity pen tool
Subz
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- KVRian
- 1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
For me, it's just the infuriation of grabbing the playlist cursor, or the IN/OUT cursors when simply trying to draw a note near them.
I'd like to see the line tool do straight lines in CC, not the horrid jaggy snap-defined ones (and no, turning off SNAP or holding down Ctrl makes no difference).
I'd like to see the line tool do straight lines in CC, not the horrid jaggy snap-defined ones (and no, turning off SNAP or holding down Ctrl makes no difference).
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- KVRAF
- 5851 posts since 9 Jul, 2002 from Helsinki
I can't pin it down exactly, but it has a bad "feel". It just does not feel as exact & reliable as eXT & Cubase VST/SX. I don't use it for that reason, (even after making an effort to like it and learn to use it), but I don't think it even has the the functionality of eXT's piano roll either... which is a very, very good piano roll to be fair 
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- KVRist
- 123 posts since 27 Feb, 2003
As long as you use the keyboard-shortcuts I don't consider the pianoroll to be a show stopper at all.
Maybe Jules could have made it less dependent of shortcuts if he made more use of right-clicks, double-clicks and mouse-wheel-clicks, but perhaps that's a cross plattform issue?
I like EnergyXt's pianoroll too, but it isn't perfect either. You have to double-click to add notes
(or holding down alt) and you can't change the snap-resolution with the mouse as in Tracktion ( ok, I know some people don't like that 'feature', but I do
).
ceenda:
Maybe Jules could have made it less dependent of shortcuts if he made more use of right-clicks, double-clicks and mouse-wheel-clicks, but perhaps that's a cross plattform issue?
I like EnergyXt's pianoroll too, but it isn't perfect either. You have to double-click to add notes
(or holding down alt) and you can't change the snap-resolution with the mouse as in Tracktion ( ok, I know some people don't like that 'feature', but I do
).ceenda:
Do you want to use a resolution that's higher than the current zoom-level? The highest possible resolution all the time? I kinda like the jaggy lines, you see what you get if you understand what I mean...I'd like to see the line tool do straight lines in CC, not the horrid jaggy snap-defined ones (and no, turning off SNAP or holding down Ctrl makes no difference).
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- KVRian
- 1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
midi-man: It's really for synths that allow things like Modulation and Volume via CC. For instance, in Garritan (GPO) you control volume with CC1. Try and create a smooth crescendo with the line tool. The effect is like aliasing. You can draw fine CCs, so why not the ability to draw fine(r) lines as well.
Some CCs, like GM panning, you might want limited to snap, but others require a finer touch and this is impossible to do well in T's CC section.
Some CCs, like GM panning, you might want limited to snap, but others require a finer touch and this is impossible to do well in T's CC section.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
ceenda--
ALL MIDI has 128 steps of resolution. I know what you're saying about the smoothness, but a visual representation that "looks" smoother won't make it so.
You are far better off using VST automation instead of MIDI messages for modulation. If you want to record it as MIDI but then convert it to (smoother) VST automation, you could use a tool like Subminimal (ModuLR) CC Rider:
http://subminimal.org/tools.php
However, you can record VST automation in realtime just as easily (or MORE easily?), or draw the curve in VST more easily. If the curve-drawing limitations are too annoying for you, and they're not giving you the "feel", you should be recording the automation in realtime or drawing the curve ('jaggies' and all) and use CC Rider.
Now, from what I understand, you're not crazy and there IS still some sort of resolution problem; however, even when that gets fixed, you're still limited to 128 steps. Why not make the happy change over to VST automation now? The sooner the better!
ALL MIDI has 128 steps of resolution. I know what you're saying about the smoothness, but a visual representation that "looks" smoother won't make it so.
You are far better off using VST automation instead of MIDI messages for modulation. If you want to record it as MIDI but then convert it to (smoother) VST automation, you could use a tool like Subminimal (ModuLR) CC Rider:
http://subminimal.org/tools.php
However, you can record VST automation in realtime just as easily (or MORE easily?), or draw the curve in VST more easily. If the curve-drawing limitations are too annoying for you, and they're not giving you the "feel", you should be recording the automation in realtime or drawing the curve ('jaggies' and all) and use CC Rider.
Now, from what I understand, you're not crazy and there IS still some sort of resolution problem; however, even when that gets fixed, you're still limited to 128 steps. Why not make the happy change over to VST automation now? The sooner the better!
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- KVRian
- 1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
Lunch Money: I'm using CC Rider already, it's a great plugin. 
Only problem is when you want to move automation about or rescale MIDI clips.
I know what you mean about the MIDI only having 128 steps, but when you look at a clip of, say, 4 measures and draw a line, the CC jumps in 'steps' of, say, 8 at a time. It's impossible to hit the lowest level (1) of 128 limit as the snap settings create 'jumps' in the data.
Anyway, I've kinda dragged the topic off-topic.
Sorry Frippertronix, I shall bow out (and maybe make some music instead of whingeing for a change 
).
Only problem is when you want to move automation about or rescale MIDI clips. I know what you mean about the MIDI only having 128 steps, but when you look at a clip of, say, 4 measures and draw a line, the CC jumps in 'steps' of, say, 8 at a time. It's impossible to hit the lowest level (1) of 128 limit as the snap settings create 'jumps' in the data.
Anyway, I've kinda dragged the topic off-topic.
Sorry Frippertronix, I shall bow out (and maybe make some music instead of whingeing for a change ).-
- KVRAF
- 4878 posts since 13 Jun, 2002 from Montreal
I do much of my stuff by drawing in midi notes and this one doesn't cut it for me. Navigation is just too sticky and awkward and is not the way I like it is with FLS, eXT, Sonar or even Live. Velocity editing is indirect. I think thr single window philoshphy has hampered this somehow.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
OK, good points, ceenda, and I knew that there were still resolution problems with the MIDI side of things.
Cool beans. Hope it all works out for ya.
Gordon-- I agree about the navigation, and the direct-access to velocity is something that would be cool-- click to add note, and then drag up or down to modify velocity. Would be slick! I disagree about the one-screen thing, though, only from personal perspective. Can't speak for everyone!
To me, it seems that the piano roll would take up the same amount of space whether it's in one window within the edit or whether it's in a separate window somewhere else. Even Cubase has moved to in-line MIDI editing. The in-line MIDI editing is definitely on of the strengths, because it makes it far easier to correlate MIDI and audio.
Now, in theory you COULD have the best of both worlds: a third option in the "settings" page: "double-clicking a MIDI click opens the MIDI editor" and then when you're done editing, it could still be a transparent clip that you could overlay onto audio and manually enlarge (remembering, double-clicking would launch the editor, so you have to enlarge manually!) for moving and tidying.
However, I don't see what functionality a separate window would add. Any tools that could be added with a second window could be added in the existing window. Rather, I think it's as indicated earlier-- most of the tools are hidden in keyboard shortcuts instead of as clickable options.
All that said, there IS something kludgy about T's editing, I agree. To me it's mostly about navigation, but there are other things that don't fit my way of working. Luckily I rarely work with MIDI, so it's still suiting my purposes.
Greg
Cool beans.
Hope it all works out for ya. Gordon-- I agree about the navigation, and the direct-access to velocity is something that would be cool-- click to add note, and then drag up or down to modify velocity. Would be slick! I disagree about the one-screen thing, though, only from personal perspective. Can't speak for everyone!
To me, it seems that the piano roll would take up the same amount of space whether it's in one window within the edit or whether it's in a separate window somewhere else. Even Cubase has moved to in-line MIDI editing. The in-line MIDI editing is definitely on of the strengths, because it makes it far easier to correlate MIDI and audio.
Now, in theory you COULD have the best of both worlds: a third option in the "settings" page: "double-clicking a MIDI click opens the MIDI editor" and then when you're done editing, it could still be a transparent clip that you could overlay onto audio and manually enlarge (remembering, double-clicking would launch the editor, so you have to enlarge manually!) for moving and tidying.
However, I don't see what functionality a separate window would add. Any tools that could be added with a second window could be added in the existing window. Rather, I think it's as indicated earlier-- most of the tools are hidden in keyboard shortcuts instead of as clickable options.
All that said, there IS something kludgy about T's editing, I agree. To me it's mostly about navigation, but there are other things that don't fit my way of working. Luckily I rarely work with MIDI, so it's still suiting my purposes.
Greg
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- KVRist
- 99 posts since 13 Jan, 2005
HI
I don't currently use T2 as the Midi use/feel/implimentation for me IS a show stopper - it makes an otherwise inspiring program flop.
So T2 gets little use - I would say FL has it's own issues that make it likewise unusable for me!
So I stick with XT/Live.
Porpoise.
I don't currently use T2 as the Midi use/feel/implimentation for me IS a show stopper - it makes an otherwise inspiring program flop.
So T2 gets little use - I would say FL has it's own issues that make it likewise unusable for me!
So I stick with XT/Live.
Porpoise.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Just as *I* need to remember that some people do their music primarily with MIDI, other people need to remember that some of us do primarily audio.
T2 is definitely not a "flop", though it may not be useful to you as at least partially a "MIDI guy".
If you're already using XT for MIDI, it will work alongside Tracktion just as well as it'll work alongside Live.
T2 is definitely not a "flop", though it may not be useful to you as at least partially a "MIDI guy".
If you're already using XT for MIDI, it will work alongside Tracktion just as well as it'll work alongside Live.
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- KVRist
- 336 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Tragorden
I agree. The recent "fixes" didn't make it feel any better.pakana wrote:I can't pin it down exactly, but it has a bad "feel".