T2 for sale - $50

[HelgeG]

Does Live have any equivalent of a rack?

EXT

[headquest]

Does Live have any equivalent of a rack?

EXT

eXT is great for Ableton users who want modularity similar to Tracktion's racks, sure...

...but I think the sequencer itself in eXT is very different to either Ableton or Tracktion, and presently lacks their ease of use. It also seems strangely disconected to the modular view (i.e. the modular stuff isn't directly connected to the sequencer itself )

[ceenda]

headquest: According to jorgen, the entire modular setup will be available to the sequencer comp soon. Exciting stuff.

[Lunch Money]

headquest: I've still not downloaded the latest demo, which I promised to do. I DO think Live is a great app, actually, but SO FAR I haven't noticed it being suited to me. You are absolutely correct, though, that it was the Session view that threw me off. Can't speak for anyone else, but for ME, that was the case. I'm going to demo it again (I can't afford to buy it anyhow, but at least then I'll be qualified more to argue with you OR agree with you!); but in the meantime, Live is apparently missing the feature that I use the most often: overlapping audio clips and auto cross-fading.

Greg

[headquest]

headquest: According to jorgen, the entire modular setup will be available to the sequencer comp soon. Exciting stuff.

Yes, that would be quite exciting indeed. Thanks for the heads up

[ModuLR]

Now here's the thing - the Arrangement View in Ableton Live is identical to this in every way . All the Tracktion functionality I just described is implemented in exactly the same manner in Ableton Live.

I use Live5 too... Live is really wonderful at creating stuff on the fly. It's kinda like having a groove box. I sit at a cafe sippin' a chai latte and jam with only my computer's keyboard. Resampling bits all over, and kinda roughly laying out a track. In this way, I have truely enjoyed it! On the other hand, it's arrange page is pure frustration for me.. basically I hate it. At which point I float right over to tracktion, because this is where it shines.. editing.

So here, let me give you some valid reasons why I hate the Live5 arrange...

you can't have overlapping clips which forces you to create A/B style tracks. Tho ppl complain about the need for folders in T, the matter is amplified in Live when you are forced to A/B stuff just to have overlapping clips, but with no folder tracks to group anything...

Zoom and scrolling is not attached to the mousewheel... nor can you right click on either side of the position bar to zoom. Yes it sounds pety, but navigation is one of the most important things imho for things to feel fluid. I really dislike going to the upper portion of the arrrange just to zoom. I like just zipping all over the place.

No quick access to envelopes ON the timeline. You have to do it all with clip envelopes... and while great, sometimes you just want to grab the edge of a clip (where the mouse is when you are moving stuff around) and add a fade. It seems small, but when you do this A LOT.. there is a huge different between tracktion and Live.

No quick access to pitching clips. Once again, you have to dig into the envelopes... instead of being able to select a button that says pitch at which point you simply select the pitch you want and the clip is adjusted + nothing nearly as intuitive as holding alt+the edge of the clip to adjust pitch freely.

You can't loop clips in the arrange with the WARP OFF. This is purely stupid. Surprising as it may be... I don't really care for timestretching *everything*! Sometime I just want it to loop non warped.. and you can't do that in Live's arrange. Meanwhile, tracktion does this very easy. Also I like the fact that in T, you can grab the loop bars inside a clip to change their repeat rate. All of this being done from the clip itself.

You can't layer midi clips over audio clips. This is yet another huge difference. Yeah, it might sound trivial, but for myself.. this is a T feature I use A LOT... and a feature that most hosts ignore. Take a drum loop you like, then create a midi clip and layer it over the top. I use this to create very tight drum layering... and it's just something that isn't existant in Live.

there are more little things too... but this is why I hate Live's arrange. I don't think it's unreasonable, for the way I work, to find such things dissappointing in Live5. A detailed drum track comped in T that contained over 100+ edits and fades... in Live it would have been an absolutely horrid task.

Ya just gotta respect that people work different ways... and one solution isn't for everyone...

but for noodling on the fly, nothing comes close to it! Thus they both have a place in my heart. I really gave the arrange a fair shot too, but it was entirely too frustrating and killing me creatively... as I think editing is a very integral part of the creative process.

[Hypertone]

Lol, what is it with Live users and cafes. You're about the 10th person I've heard talking about using Live while sipping coffee.

I'm not complaining, I wish I had a laptop, I'd give it a try myself. I'd probably go sit on the beach with a beer though.

[ModuLR]

well... it's because I'm a pretentious little bitch... thus it makes me look cool! hahah...

seriously tho, I do like jammin' in cafes. Something about trying to make music with the energy of the people around... I really enjoy.

[mandolarian]

So are Live users busking with a laptop at Starbucks?
Is it more profitable than busking in front of the liquor store with a guitar and a 3 legged dog?

[Lunch Money]

I'm still going to try Live5 so that I'm not going on hear-say, but everything Mod mentioned (well, he mentioned a FEW things I don't actually do) are things that I do in T all the time, that I can't even imagine being without.

And for the benefit of the eXT people out there, most of those are also problems I have in using eXT, too, which is why I keep finding it so hard to get "into" audio sequencing in eXT.

Greg

[headquest]

Excellent post ModuLR, and you certainly raise a plie of interesting points.

I was trying to highlight the similarities between the two, and it simply confuses/amuses me 9 times out of 10 when people claim to love one piece of software and hate another (it sounds like fanboy-ism most times). In your case of course, it's different. You're an experienced Tracktion power-user who is undoubtedly doing stuff with the software that personally I've never tried anyway.

There are a few comments to make though, and about Live one or two tricks you may not have discovered/remembered. I accept that you have some valid reasons for prefering Tracktion, and that you're pro-Ableton too (so not just a fanboy!) and in that spirit you might find these useful:

you can't have overlapping clips which forces you to create A/B style tracks. Tho ppl complain about the need for folders in T, the matter is amplified in Live when you are forced to A/B stuff just to have overlapping clips, but with no folder tracks to group anything...

Folder tracks aren't in either program yet, and there are users of both shouting for them.

For the sort of crossfading you are talking about, in Live you simply set the clips up in adjacent tracks and use the designated crossfader slider, or draw automation. I have it on good authority that Live 6 will enhance this further

Zoom and scrolling is not attached to the mousewheel... nor can you right click on either side of the position bar to zoom. Yes it sounds pety, but navigation is one of the most important things imho for things to feel fluid. I really dislike going to the upper portion of the arrrange just to zoom. I like just zipping all over the place.

To zoom in Live you simply drag the edge of the overview at the top. It's easier and much quicker than zooming in Tracktion (for me, anyway). I actually find Tracktion's zooming behavior quite annoying (I need to spend more time customising it, probably).

No quick access to envelopes ON the timeline. You have to do it all with clip envelopes... and while great, sometimes you just want to grab the edge of a clip (where the mouse is when you are moving stuff around) and add a fade. It seems small, but when you do this A LOT.. there is a huge different between tracktion and Live.

Huh Automation in the Arrangement is exactly as in Tracktion - i.e. you grab the property you want to automate from the top right edge of the track and simply draw lines. No difference at all there

I'm forever drawing fades over clips in the arrangement view. Clip automation is something different (which Tracktion doesn't currently have).

No quick access to pitching clips. Once again, you have to dig into the envelopes... instead of being able to select a button that says pitch at which point you simply select the pitch you want and the clip is adjusted + nothing nearly as intuitive as holding alt+the edge of the clip to adjust pitch freely.

That's something I never spotted in Trackion, firstly, probably because I've only looked at its timestretching-type activities briefly (they were clearly bad).

In Live, changing pitch is actually a doddle - and results are outstanding - , but you are right to say that it is done in the clip properties, not the arrangement lane itself. Personally I find that much easier to manage anyway.

You can't loop clips in the arrange with the WARP OFF. This is purely stupid. Surprising as it may be... I don't really care for timestretching *everything*! Sometime I just want it to loop non warped.. and you can't do that in Live's arrange. Meanwhile, tracktion does this very easy.

To loop a clip that isn't warped the approach is different (and there are very good reasons for that within Live's paradigm...)

You simply Ctr-click and drag as many times as you wish. Not particularly difficult

Also I like the fact that in T, you can grab the loop bars inside a clip to change their repeat rate. All of this being done from the clip itself.

I think you are contradicting yourself on this one mate Tracktion/Live both do some things on the clip and others on the timeline. You just compained that pitch is done on the clip, not the timeline... and now your complaining that repeating clips is done on the timeline, not the clip Surely not a biggie?

You can't layer midi clips over audio clips. This is yet another huge difference. Yeah, it might sound trivial, but for myself.. this is a T feature I use A LOT... and a feature that most hosts ignore. Take a drum loop you like, then create a midi clip and layer it over the top. I use this to create very tight drum layering... and it's just something that isn't existant in Live.

True, and I think that with this one you have hit on something unusual but useful that Tracktion does and many others don't.

Ya just gotta respect that people work different ways... and one solution isn't for everyone...

Absolutely - its a point I often make too. And it's incredible that we have so many excellent sequencer choices these days - something to suit everyone

but for noodling on the fly, nothing comes close to it! Thus they both have a place in my heart. I really gave the arrange a fair shot too, but it was entirely too frustrating and killing me creatively... as I think editing is a very integral part of the creative process.

You only mention one thing there though that Live basically doesn't do at all. And there are lots of things that Live DOES do that Tracktion doesn't

As you say, it boils down to working methods and personal taste. And I have a very high respect for yours mate

[ModuLR]

No quick access to envelopes ON the timeline. You have to do it all with clip envelopes... and while great, sometimes you just want to grab the edge of a clip (where the mouse is when you are moving stuff around) and add a fade. It seems small, but when you do this A LOT.. there is a huge different between tracktion and Live.

Huh Automation in the Arrangement is exactly as in Tracktion - i.e. you grab the property you want to automate from the top right edge of the track and simply draw lines. No difference at all there

I'm forever drawing fades over clips in the arrangement view. Clip automation is something different (which Tracktion doesn't currently have).

What I was refering to was volume envelopes.. not automation envelopes. I have situations where I've sliced lots of clips and basically use the volume envelopes in T as an ADSR sorta. This is not nearly as simple in Live. There's no clicking automation points with T... you just drag at either end of the clip. It's fast.

No quick access to pitching clips. Once again, you have to dig into the envelopes... instead of being able to select a button that says pitch at which point you simply select the pitch you want and the clip is adjusted + nothing nearly as intuitive as holding alt+the edge of the clip to adjust pitch freely.

That's something I never spotted in Trackion, firstly, probably because I've only looked at its timestretching-type activities briefly (they were clearly bad).

In Live, changing pitch is actually a doddle - and results are outstanding - , but you are right to say that it is done in the clip properties, not the arrangement lane itself. Personally I find that much easier to manage anyway.

Honestly, I prefer ACID in this category... because you just hit the +/- keys and it will repitch the clip (and display the change on the clip).

You can't loop clips in the arrange with the WARP OFF. This is purely stupid. Surprising as it may be... I don't really care for timestretching *everything*! Sometime I just want it to loop non warped.. and you can't do that in Live's arrange. Meanwhile, tracktion does this very easy.

To loop a clip that isn't warped the approach is different (and there are very good reasons for that within Live's paradigm...)

You simply Ctr-click and drag as many times as you wish. Not particularly difficult

The problem with your suggestion is each clip becomes independent and I would like them linked.. so when I slip the audo in the clip.. it's slipped in all the reamining looped clips. If I would like a clip to "become" independent in T... all I have to do is then '/' slice it. You can't do this in Live's arrange (without warping). Trust me, I've tried.

Also I like the fact that in T, you can grab the loop bars inside a clip to change their repeat rate. All of this being done from the clip itself.

I think you are contradicting yourself on this one mate Tracktion/Live both do some things on the clip and others on the timeline. You just compained that pitch is done on the clip, not the timeline... and now your complaining that repeating clips is done on the timeline, not the clip Surely not a biggie?

my point here really is that Live's arrange often makes me feel like I have to focus on two places. The clip at the bottom, and the results in the arrange. In Traction, the loop bars are inside the clip itself. You see a direct relation of where you moving the looping point relative to the timeline. In Live, you move the postion on the bottom... then you look up to see what it's doing on the timeline. I guess it's kinda silly, but I prefer seeing the results "where my mouse is located" because that is most likely where I'm looking. So moving the mouse then looking elsewhere feels awkward.

You only mention one thing there though that Live basically doesn't do at all. And there are lots of things that Live DOES do that Tracktion doesn't

But I addressed your question asking why someone might dislike Live's arrange. Whether it can perform the same functions isn't the issue. It's how intuitively and quickly can I perform those functions. The reasons listed are reasons why I prefer arranging in Tracktion. Tracktion has a feel that is very close to my "editing" environment. I simply can't "edit" effeciently in live, while Tracktion I can. I didn't mention Live's good features because they don't change that fact that I greatly dislike live's arrange (tho I would LOVE a consolide clip command and automation clips in T )

Honestly, the only two timelines (arranges) that I really like are Tracktion and Sony Vegas... for whatever reason, they have a very similar feel imo... Vegas having some really slick features missing in T, and of course vice versa.

oh... and I neglected to metion the biggest feature (tho not arrange related) being the racks. Sure you can route in Live, or use eXT as a rack in Live, but you can't route multiple tracks into a single modular environment.. and matain each track seperately inside that environment. To do so in Live would require support for multiple-in VSTs... and live doesn't do that last I checked. T doesn't require any of that, you just create a mutiple in/out Rack.. and assign the tracks to it then go nuts.

As you say, it boils down to working methods and personal taste. And I have a very high respect for yours mate

[kovacs]

What I was refering to was volume envelopes.. not automation envelopes. I have situations where I've sliced lots of clips and basically use the volume envelopes in T as an ADSR sorta. This is not nearly as simple in Live. There's no clicking automation points with T... you just drag at either end of the clip. It's fast.

Sorry for being dense - but isn't volume also an automation envelope?

Anyway it's right there in Live, even if you have to choose it from the far right of the track. And what I like with Live is that you can choose to work with any envelope you want.

I ditched T2 for Live. T2 is a great tool but I think I needed the simplicity of Live. For me it's a wonderful compositional scratch pad when I'm in session view (recording take after take in clip after clip and saving the best), then I record the different scenes and start to work on the arrangement.

But like has been pointed out...different toys, different joys.

[headquest]

Thanks for the clarifications ModuLR, and I think I get where you're coming from. I suspect that quite a few of the ways that you personally work have evolved precisely because you have used Tracktion so much and in such depth. Quite probably those methods will never be exactly replicated in other sequencers for that reason!

I was concerned by your first post though, because of the false impression it might have given to more casual users/readers. I felt your points gave the impression that Live's arrangement view might not be capable of full-on sequencing duties, and while you prefer the ergonomics of Tracktion (so do I in some respects, by the way!) it would be wrong to imply that Live is anything less than a full-on music production tool. I know that you know that... but other readers might not . Of course, Ableton Live is already used by quite a lot of well known name artists, including for full-on production duties.

For me and you of course... we've got the best of both worlds

[pHz]

im in the middle of all this too ... i moved away from T1 to live 4 / live 5 (although never exclusively) ... but then moved back again and am now MAINLY in the T2 camp again ...

... and like modulr the main reason is my personal response to the ergonomics of lives arrangement view ... i LOVE the session views for just arseing around with sounds and loops but always find translating that to anything more concrete in the arrangment view somewhat awkward (although i would NEVER suggest live is anything less than a fully capable DAW) ... unlike modulr though im no T2 power-user though no noob either ...

... so ... i just wonder how someone new to DAWs (or even someone coming to T2 / live5 from a more 'conventional' sequencer) would find the ease if use and workflow in T2s edit view compared to live5s arrangment view ??? ...

slainte rob