Maybe I'm just blind......

[braj]

I personally think that advice is pretty good. And I'm not a Christian. I have to tell my wife about being submissive though, she'll like that

[koolkeys]

read it

RONC

no

[Mr. Tingle]

horses for courses

[IIRs]

And also you have to remember that it may bother you when people claim they "know" the truth, that you are doing the same thing, and so it's easy to create a double standard.

Well, it is important to remember that everything anybody ever says (including priests, rabbis & imams) is just their opinion..

At least I am prepared to argue my case with logic and reason, rather than just claiming divine authority..

[headquest]

Well, it is important to remember that everything anybody ever says (including priests, rabbis & imams) is just their opinion..

I agree up to a point, but I think it's more complex than you suggest.

Many of the great faiths claim that objective truth does exist, and not merely opinion.

In YOUR opinion, that may not be true. But to adherents of those faiths, many of their beliefs are objective truths that are clearly defined in established sources (e.g. the Bible, Torah or Koran).

Within those objective truths there are some elements that are very black and white, bringing unity across that faith. Other elements are more open to interpretation, giving rise to factions within their community (e.g. the different denominations within the universal Christian Church).

SO while the points made by any given spiritual leader may be (in your opinion) their opinions... they will often genuinely believe that their views are empiracle truths.

I agree that in some cases this can lead to conflict and abuse (as I said before, I have first-hand experience of that). But the point I'm trying to illustrate is that it is not so easy to question the conscious motives of the people involved as you seem to suggest.

At least I am prepared to argue my case with logic and reason, rather than just claiming divine authority..

Most of the Christians in my aquaintance try to use reason in their arguements. (unfortunately I don't know enough people of other faiths to comment on them).

The act of claiming divine authority for something is, itself, subject to logical and reasoned debate, though. To stick with the Christian example, the authority of the scriptues is subject to intense debate among believers, including detailed historical research, archeology, scientific verification of sources, etc.

So that comment is a nice soundbite, but I'm not convinced that your point stands closer scrutiny (using logic and reason )

[IIRs]

Most of the Christians in my aquaintance try to use reason in their arguements. (unfortunately I don't know enough people of other faiths to comment on them).

Why is homosexuality wrong? Because the bible says so.

Why is contraception wrong? Because the pope says so.

Why did Bush invade Iraq? Because god told him to..

[headquest]

Why is homosexuality wrong? Because the bible says so.

Christian theologians are certainly divided about that view. Don't confuse ignorance with faith.

Why is contraception wrong? Because the pope says so.

That's a dogma, rather than a tenet of faith. Again it's something catholics are hotly debating, because its a complex arguement from their perspective (seems simple enough to me, but hey! I'm not a catholic). You have to respect people enough to allow them to work through change when their long-held dogma becomes subject to doubt. It can be a very painful process for people.

Why did Bush invade Iraq? Because god told him to..

Don't confuse normal people's beliefs with politician's bullshit

-----------------------------------

Again, I think you missed the point of most of what I wrote, or else deliberately chose to ignore it . From all the stuff I wrote you just picked on one sentence to attack . I can hear and understand your anger with religion, but I really think you need to work through some of that and be more willing to question your own fiercely held beliefs in the process

If it wasn't for the fact that you are forcing your own quite militant religious beliefs on everyone here, I dont suppose we would be having this debate at all. In some ways that makes you the ultimate religious hypocrite! As a general rule people here (including me) have respected and valued your musical/production opinions and input. They have not tried to force their religious view upon you. Please just have a go at showing them/us the same respect.

[zOap]

when i was really young, if i tried to imagine what god might look like, he looked exactly like this:



the stupid gorg from fraggle rock.

Oh My GOD!! You captured ehrm, GOD!!!

Set him free, set him free I say, or I'll
see to that your frequency perspective is
narrowed to 999Hz to 1001Hz, not very pleasant??

And I can do this, I've done it myself, yeah, I know exactly what to do. FEAR ME you godcapturing fool.

Now, out to get some air.

I'm sorry, sniff, I won't ever do this again.

Temporary insanity, fun, but lethal.

[djsubject]

I cant not read this post & i cant not get offended by some of the comments made by IIRs (sorry)


I'm out of this mad house!


happy music macking to you all


Chris

[rivrock]

Why is homosexuality wrong? Because the bible says so.

Headquest wrote:
Christian theologians are certainly divided about that view. Don't confuse ignorance with faith.

Rivrock wrote:
Any christian theologian worth his salt surely knows that the bible refers to homosexualiy as an abomination, so why the confusion and division, why, because when people fill their heads with this nonsense. common sense goes out the window.

They seem to have their abominations mixed up, what else are they getting wrong.

'Imagine no religion'- John Lennon.

[zOap]

I cant not read this post & i cant not get offended by some of the comments made by IIRs (sorry)


I'm out of this mad house!


happy music macking to you all


Chris

I think you might take life (and this topic) a bit to serious.

I think it's fascinating to watch how people observe life and how they inturpite it.

Relax dude, we're all in this for life. Noone gets out of it alive. Have fun while you're still breathing.
God or no god, noones gonna take my humour away, bad humour or good humour.

[headquest]

Any christian theologian worth his salt surely knows that the bible refers to homosexualiy as an abomination, so why the confusion and division, why, because when people fill their heads with this nonsense. common sense goes out the window.

They seem to have their abominations mixed up, what else are they getting wrong.

As I am neither a Christian nor gay, I don't have any particular axe to grind here, although you appear to

In terms of theological perspectives though, I rather think that you are the one who is a bit confused here...

"Any Christian theologian worth his salt surely knows..."

... that there is a world of difference between Old Testement law and New Testement grace.

Homosexuality is indeed condemned under the old testement levitical laws, and the Apostle Paul referenced this in (chapter one of) his letter to the Romans, where he is specifically outlining the history of the breakdown in the relationship between God and sinful man. Of course he then goes on to explain how the Grace of God, revealed through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus - who was made sin (including homosexuality) on the cross - so that God need not take acount of sin in man any longer. He concludes by stating that this does not give us continuing license to sin, but does however transform and heal our rift with God, and set in place a "new law" in place of the many old and obsolete levitical laws (which of course were only put in place for the Jewish nation in any case... the gentiles were never under the OT law).

Perhaps you have been listening to exactly the kind of preaching that upsets IIRs (and me for that matter). When religion is used as an excuse for condemning and margenalising others it is - to use your word - an abomination. The God of the New Testement would have no store in that.

...and I'm not even a churchgoer! Perhaps I missed my vocation after all

[audiobot202]

Very well said Headquest. I think that your knowledge of the subject matter injects a great deal of reasoned debate into this thread. While I cannot claim the same depth of knowledge as yourself, I think it is vital to understand both sides of any argument or opinion.

[rpc9943]

its fun to see everyone's limited box thoughts, stereotypes, blanketting statements. SO FUNNY.

CLOSE THREAD PLEASE

ERASE

RONC

[rivrock]

Headquest,

I am neither christian or gay, but I am a carpenter, so I do need to keep my axes and chisels sharpened

Old testament: abomination, New testament: sin

...missed your vocation 'eh, well you wouldnt have made it very far with evangelicals, consider yourself fortunate in that respect


'Life is to serious to take seriously'- Shakespeare