Amplitube 2 Jimi Hendrix RELEASED this month!!!

[Squids]

I hear you Dave. I do respect your experience and POV - from the production side of things the software option is miles ahaed. I am sure At2 really adds a huge pallete of sounds to the mix. Note though that I am still trying to find a really good hardware amp to play live that I can afford. 2. I am biased against the tones I heard with AT1. They were not compelling for me. At2 may turn me around but frankly I am terrified of the copy protect key. I know about 10 peopled whose systems were screwed by the Syncrosoft dongle.

Thanks. Sounds like you need a good amp to play live as your first priority. As I said, AT2 is a different animal and one that I would use for either production or getting a variety of sounds on stage (which is why I think the Stones were using it. This is what Will Alexander DID tell me was the reason because believe me I asked! They had tons of tweed Twinds and Vibro Kings, Ampegs etc. but AT is nice to have around for a customized sound when needed without lugging a lot of EXTRA gear ).

As for the key, I've been using it and it is not bad. I am already used to it because I use Cubase (and also my ProTools and Logic also have keys... at least the IK stuff fits onto the Cubase key though). At some point you'll probably try it out and see for yourself. It solves some other issues that make it worth it such as cleaning your hard drive or portability with multiple machines etc. The best part about it though is that it means there are more legit copies out there and it supports companies putting more into the product (feeling more confident on the return on investment). So, supporting protection (as much as we ALL don't like it) is actually supporting a certain level of progress in commercial software. If you choose to look at it from a that perspective.

In terms of sound, I think it may be up your alley knowing what you like. I know that I like it a lot and we have similar tastes. FWIW.

[morelia]

The more I read people try to justify this sort of copy protection the more it pisses me off. It will get cracked and it will be the cause of problems for registered users (one of which I am). Not too hard to figure out what would be the right thing to do by IK's users.

[A3ntar]

The more I read people try to justify this sort of copy protection the more it pisses me off. It will get cracked and it will be the cause of problems for registered users (one of which I am). Not too hard to figure out what would be the right thing to do by IK's users.

morelia, Squids isn't just "people". He knows from first hand experience that the USB key did not hurt the Philharmonik sales, but on the contraire, I think he mentioned that it was one of the best product launches ever, sales wise. I don't know if that program has been "violated" by pirates, but I am thinking no. Did the tougher protection worked? Yes! People that couldn't just pirate it and wanted to use it, had to buy it. Now, is the good sales figure related to the USB key alone? of course not! The quality of the application itself is the biggest factor, hence the bigger the reason to protect it with something "tougher".

If these companies can get a tough protection without resorting to sometimes problematic USB dongles, I am pretty sure they would. They are not out to get you. They just want to protect their investment using the best known to be tough protection. If nobody was pirating anything, and every user is legally buying their software, then there wouldn't be a need for copy protection in the first place. Unfortunatly, that isn't the way it works, and now even less with all these P2P networks.

[Watto]

Sorry, A3ntar, but I don't believe these things are as easily quantifiable as you would have us believe. There is no possible way of proving this issue either way.

As for me, quite frankly, I'd buy a product with a dongle if I thought it was phenomenal enough, but it would have to be extraordinary, which means that products such as this may miss out on my business...

Anyway, carry on - don't want to turn this thread into a protection one!

Woops, I just did...

[Sascha Franck]

Two clarifications regarding latency:

I've been talking about the latency of the pedal/interface. If the AT software is adding another 3-5ms, uhm...

And then, Greg, yes, I *can* compensate for latency while playing, but recordings will be compensated again, thus being early. So, things won't be sounding as in the moment they were recorded. Of course that's not what you want.

[morelia]

Well obviously one form of copy protection is a sample based program that is so huge that cracking it is pointless if it is too big to distribute. I am not saying copy protection hurts sales. I am pretty sure people will buy something regardless if they really want it. What I am saying is that I don't like having to deal with shit like this when I have plenty of other products that don't make me jump through hurdles just to use what I paid for. I am not even saying I will have to jump through hurdles. All I am saying is that it will most likely be a cause of concern and annoyance for some registered user, and it will be cracked and distributed on the internet regardless of this protection. Unless I am mistaken and it comes with a 300gb sample library that it requires to function. It's not worth discussing really because (a) I only brought it up because someone (and I am pretty sure Squids is a person) tried to justify the use of "the key" as copy protection and I can see no reason to use it and; (b) I am patiently waiting for the AT2 which I have already paid for so obviously I am in the "will buy it regardless category".

P.S. I didn't want this to turn into a big deal so I should probably delete my post. I just thought, why sit here and say nothing and wait for AT2 to get here with copy protection that pisses me off when I can simply voice my humble opinion in the open and friendly forum land of KVR.

[Sascha Franck]

Here's 4 bars of a 4 on the floor kick with a snare on 2 + 4, followed by another 4 bars with the snare negatively delayed by 10ms. Which is exactly what would happen when you'd record something using a latency setting of 5ms (remember, 5ms in, 5ms out) and compensate for it while tracking.
Now, usually A/D converters add another 1-2ms of latency and sometimes the software itself is adding something as well (up to 4096 samples in case of, say, SIR).
So you'll easily end up with something worse than this.
http://home.arcor.de/s.franck/temp/5msLatency.mp3

[Lunch Money]

Sascha, I'm mondo confused.

When you record something with latency, after recording it gets shifted back to the 'correct' spot in time. How else could anyone operate? If your soundcard is reporting a latency of 5ms to your host, your host will then shift it all back 5ms so that it's lined up properly.

You'd never track with SIR, and you SHOULDN'T be tracking with plug-ins that add fixed latency like that, anyhow. Save it for the mix. At which point in time your PDC will again compensate for added latency.

Am I listening to that sample for the 'flammed' sound of the snare? If so, sure it's noticeable, but you're also doubling an exact part. Even if your host didn't shift your audio (which it should) and even if you added plug-in latency, with a guitar part playing against OTHER instruments, I highly doubt that most people would notice that difference in timing anyhow. And since YOU'RE the one who WOULD notice it, it's a simple matter (if your host isn't doing the job it should be doing) to nudge your clip backwards until it lines up.

Greg

[Sascha Franck]

When you record something with latency, after recording it gets shifted back to the 'correct' spot in time. How else could anyone operate? If your soundcard is reporting a latency of 5ms to your host, your host will then shift it all back 5ms so that it's lined up properly.

Greg, as said, do the test for yourself.
Raise your latency so you'll get a noticeable delay when playing, say, a kick.
Try to record quarter notes in a way that it still sounds in time while recording. You'll have to push your keys *way* early (of course depending on the latency). Now play it back and it will actually *be* early, as the recording captured your early-ness.
It just didn't sound early while recording.

So, in the end, what you get when playing back things is sounding different than what was sounding during tracking.

On the contrary, when you raise your latency but play your keys "spot on", the sound will come out of your speakers late while tracking but will be ok on playback.

In either case, the sound/timing during recording and playback will be different.

[Sascha Franck]

Btw, nudging your clip isn't as easy as one would think...

[Lunch Money]

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of, because you've just repeated my own point for me:

- with a large delay, your timing will be f**ked up
- with a 'spot on' recording, your playing will be 'in time' with the track.

My contention is that with only 5ms delay, you WILL be playing 'spot on' regardless of the minutely-delayed guitar sound coming out of your speakers, because the 5ms delay will not be enough to throw off your perception that you're playing in time. 5ms is barely enough to make you think that you have a phase or chorus engaged, never mind making it sound like a 'delay'.

As a guitarist, you will be playing notes and hitting the strings based on the backing track (bass and drums, generally though not always), not based on the guitar part you're currently playing live-- until the latency is too large. I'm simply saying that 5ms isn't a large enough latency to screw with your timing, so you WILL be playing 'spot on' to the backing track.

Nudging IS exceedingly easy. You just nudge. I already do it all the time when my human error has effed up one note of a take. Slice, move (by ear, nudging), cross-fade. People fix timing in their tracks all the time. It's considered a pretty basic operation with no mystery to it.

[edited to clarify]

Greg

[Sascha Franck]

As said, 5ms is not 5ms. 5ms on your soundcard are (roughly) 10ms in total.
Plus the latency of your converters. Plus latency of your used software. You may very well end up with something between 15-20ms in total.

And no, nudging is *not* all that easy because I don't know whether playing a bit early might have been intentional for the feel or has simply been caused by a too large latency.

[Lunch Money]

I already addressed the 5ms being actually 10ms point, and in fact it was one of my big points I was trying to make-- it seems to me that people who think 5ms is big are actually experiencing 10ms. That's not contrary to anything I haven't already said. If your concern is that a claim by IK for "5ms" actually turns into 10ms or more of real-world latency, than you and I have no argument. That'd be an issue for me, too.

I'm merely responding to people who claim to respond to an actual real-world latency of 5ms, which I believe would be a miracle. 5ms is 1/20th of a second. That means you need 20 of them to make a second. Nobody's reflexes and response time are THAT good.

Regarding nudging-- first of all, I still maintain that 5ms isn't going to make you play early or late anyhow, so it's a moot point under that premise. But giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're actually able to compensate one way or another for 5ms, it's still easy to nudge. You just do it until it sounds right. Sometimes I don't even nudge, I just cut right to the point and grab that danged clip and move it... a matter of half-seconds, not milliseconds.

With 5ms either late or early, I doubt you'll be nudging tat all.

Greg

[Guitarjeff]

I don't think the Plug in should be adding any latency anyway. Amplitube 1 reports 0 in Nuendo's plug in information. The problem is that monitoring thru your chosen program will always add unacceptable (at least to me) latency. I just monitor directly through my MOTU Traveler. If I am actually going to use a plug in amp simulator (very rare) I will usually just record the part clean and add the sim later. If A2 were to actually be useable, I'd probably monitor through my POD Pro with a similar tone and record the direct out then tweak to taste in A2.

Even very small latencies make it almost impossible to play on time enough to do intricate parts. Particularly for guitar harmony, which I do a lot of.

Jeff

[fritzman]

Most of the time I overlooked your organ monkey style and was amused by it sometimes. But this goes too far for me. Way to far.
I won't buy AT2, because of the poor ads and because of your poor reaction to this issue.


Regards, FRitz

Organ Monkey? As in Hurdy Gurdy? I love that instrument. Thanks!

Yeah, I love that instrument, too. I meant someone who is making crazy stunts to get peoples attention to the "organ". I once was told that this is an organ monkey. A Softimage representative calls himself an organ monkey so that I thought that it doesn't sound bad in english. If it does to you, I apologize.

Hey man. Do what ever is best for you and your music!

Eh yes, I'll do that. Normal, hm?

Who knows? Maybe you prefered another piece of software all along anyway.

Quite some people do know that the answer is NO.

My personal opinion about anyone who would let the STYLE of how someone (I am not even the creator of this plug btw) speaks about a product or the style of an ad affect whether they buy it or not has their priorities messed up. But, of course, I am entitled to MY opinion too and that is what I think. Still, I also think if you don't get it then it is your loss not mine.

Squids, it's ok for me that YOU see it that way. It might even be my loss, but I have my prorities different than yours. Obviously.

Checked out your site http://www.fritzmetal.de/ btw. I just wanted to get an idea of who was talking to me (even if maybe they are insulting me) and what their music sounded like. It's always interesting to get that perspective so thanks for sharing it publicly.

Cool that you got an idea about me and my music. You don't happen to have a web site for people to get an idea about you and maybe your music, don't you?

I wish you all the best regardless. Good luck!

You might have got that wrong, and no I didn't want to insult you. If I did, I apologize. That wasn't my attention. I felt that you were insensible to the mentioned concerns and that you are hanging your flag into the wind. The wind wasn't really strong so that you were able to say straight what you're thinking about the subject. That's one part where you lost my respect.
But hey, what am I still doing here. You're the sales man, and I'm just ONE guy out there with some money.


I wish you all the best, too. Wholeheartedly. FRitz