Are You Dated?

[butter]

Dnb is dance music by nature. By nature dance music tends to be fairly derivitive. That's just kind of the nature of the beast. Hip-hop falls under this category too.

I used to produce a ton of DnB and now I make mostly hip-hop. Nothing wrong with derivitive if you understand that it is what it is and there really isn't getting around it.

I would say, "who cares?". If you like to make it, then keep making it. If you don't,make something else. Pretty simple equation if you ask me.

Wait, no one asked me. Well, too late.

[nibbzious]

Dnb is dance music by nature. By nature dance music tends to be fairly derivitive. That's just kind of the nature of the beast. Hip-hop falls under this category too.

I used to produce a ton of DnB and now I make mostly hip-hop. Nothing wrong with derivitive if you understand that it is what it is and there really isn't getting around it.

I would say, "who cares?". If you like to make it, then keep making it. If you don't,make something else. Pretty simple equation if you ask me.

Wait, no one asked me. Well, too late.

This is true, but it applies to mostly everything. DnB does have the problem with a long boring intro and obvious drop and shit, but most genres are all blessed/cursed by some sort of formula.

Yes it sucks, but you can't really do anything about it so you have to live with it. And I think this is probably more for another thread.

I just got my panties in a bunch when I heard DnB was called dated sounding. DnB is many bad things, but the basses and other production techniques are anything but dated, which is what this thread is about.

[butter]

All in the eye of the beholder I guess. Some people may view it as "dated" because they've been through their DnB production phase. Others may say it's "dated" because they keep hearing the same sounds and haven't heard any DnB outside of a specific genre.

As far as a production standpoint goes DnB is a complicated style of music. It may not be extraordinarily complex in a lot of respects when it comes to how a track is put together but it's one of the more difficult things to engineer properly. Mixing a DnB track bears a lot of similarities to a dub or raggae track and there's a lot to take into account when mixing.

Anyways, if you like to make DnB, then keep making it. If you don't, make something else.

[atomic_(no)afro]

My feelings is that a given "sub-genre" with a scene that imposes a self-conscious effort to retain some given boundaries will eventually eat itself away and become less important over time. Techno for instance has only regained relevance from boundary pushing artists like Richie Hawtin, Swayzak, and Luke Slater. Had it stayed all 909's and 303's it would have remained dead in the water.

In terms of D&B, what is considered D&B, rather than some offshoot like Drill N' Bass, Ragga Jungle, or Nu Skool Breaks (which is really just a slightly modified techstep slowed down to 130-140ish BPM) is fairly narrow. As a result, there is this greater feeling of a niche scene rather than a wider meshing that you find in eclectic sub-genres like Deep House, or Broken Beat.

What is considered Broken Beat for instance can be quite wide and often intersects with other sub-genres and non-genres like Latin House, and Chillout. It's rare that a D&B track would be considered BOTH D&B and another dissimilar genre (like House, Electro, IDM, etc) without a significant number of punters disputing the legitimacy of that track's D&B credentials.

My advice is to push boundaries, and make the punters come to YOU. Because you just can’t play their game and retain any originality. It isn’t about current and dated, it’s about being original, regardless of trends.

ATA

[butter]

Well said.

[nibbzious]

All in the eye of the beholder I guess. Some people may view it as "dated" because they've been through their DnB production phase.

The real complexities of DnB I don't find lie in the actual engineering/mixing, which granted is pretty tricky, is basically what I've been bitching about: The basslines! (although some forms of DnB don't even give the basslines a second thought which is a real shame)

The reason I uploaded that .mp3 was to put up some sort of argument to say that it's not dated. I don't think it's dated at all. DnB is the only thing for me, I don't really care about anything else musically. So I probably won't ever be able to find it dated as I'm constantly listening to new releases and hearing new techniques.

I believe my rabid fanboyism blinds me from seeing that it is dated. Yeah, reeses have around since Kevin Saunderson/Alex Reece (depending on which one you find more applicable), so that says it is dated. But the reeses of today are so incredibly complicated and they rely on the processing that is only available with today's technology... hence, not dated at all.

What about guitars and drums? Those have been around for a while... are they dated?

So it is true, it's in the eye of the beholder as either side is valid. Reeses are non-existant outside of DnB. So like you said, hearing the same sounds over over... What about me? I don't listen to anything but DnB. So when I hear a type of reese that I've never heard before it's new to me.

This probably applies to everything, ever. Some interesting findings, I beleive.

[butter]

I'm hearing a lot of those in indie hip-hop these days. If you're a DnB head, check out Techno Animal (if you haven't heard them already).

[nibbzious]

atmoic_afro:

I don't feel it's particularly terrible that there is such boundaries inside of DnB... it's been like this for a long time, it's always been like this, every has been saying DnB is dead since it's inception....

I don't know... There is something for everyone here and people don't want to listen to anything else. I mainly listen to Neuro/Techstep (hence my discussion of reese/basses) and don't really care for [Nu] Jump Up, Liquid, Darkcore/Evol Intent type stuff, Dubstep, and this so called "Grime", Jungle, etc.

Everything can be sped up to DnB tempo and be called DnB which is part of this... it's such a wide genre... And people want what they want. Each sub-genre is very different from the next, the only common theme is the drop, bassline and fast beats. You would think it would be easy for there to be cross-pollination and mutation, but because people have to work within the confines of the fast beats/bass formula you get very, very different results that only some people are going to like and mixing them is a bad idea. I don't know, I'm just trying to toss up reasons as to why the scene is so segmented.

People try to mix them, though... except the results aren't usually very good. So it never gets released or goes big. Alot of DnB genres have been mixed with other genres with great success... but inside DnB... I don't think it's really happened. If seperate genres were mixed they would then become the same genre

I don't like Liquid. I also don't like Disco. Or Soul. Or even House( or any of its sub-genres ). Coincidence? Someone who used to listen to Disco throughout their life is much more prone to like Liquid than say, the latest stormer of a tune from Ewun. So maybe they go out and listen to Liquid but they don't ever want to hear uber-dark anti-nature glitch bass.

You and others say these boundaries between sub-genres in DnB is a bad thing, but I donno... people say it's always been dead or dying, but it seems to be doing just fine to me. And I mean, people put out different forms of DnB under different aliases...

This is so completely off-topic, though

But also, comparing a reese to a 303 is much different... The sound of a reese is constantly changing and the definition always growing. DnB and certain sub-genres have been using reeses for all tracks for years... and it's still trucking on. It's been like this for a long time and DnB or it's reese-using sub-genres are not dead yet. People are always trying new techniques on their basses/reeses, and every year the accepted definition of a reese has expanded.

I used to really like the sound of a 303... but I got bored of it and it sounds dated. I got bored of the reeses from old Ed Rush & Nico tracks, and the ones from when Ed Rush teamed up with Optical. Their reeses were huge and booming at the time but are embarassing compared to today's standards. Now, hearing the basses of today are an awe-inspiring experience and they sound little like what their fore-fathers were. They are still reeses but they sound much, much different, but at the same time, very similar. This constant evolution is exciting for me. Every now and then a release redefines "reese." Phace in particular is pushing a very wierd and chaotic "barking" reese sound.

My advice is to push boundaries, and make the punters come to YOU. Because you just can’t play their game and retain any originality. It isn’t about current and dated, it’s about being original, regardless of trends.

Yes, this isn't about being dated. Nobody ever says "That reese is dated." People don't try to sound like Noisia because they want to be trendy, they do it because they love their sound... their amazing bass. It's all love. DnB is just all love, there is no money here. And why the hell is this being discussed here? This is basically someone saying DnB sounds dated and I disagreed. About how a genre needn't need boundaries and what not. And he only said reeses sound dated.. not every DnB sub-genre makes use of reeses

This is sooooooooo offtopic, and for me incredibly self-indulgent. I didn't want to get multiple people discussing the politics of my genre of choice or even the scope of music in general (pushing boundaries of music). I only wanted to call Hunter a little bitch. You guys made it worse, anyways. Oh yeah, and SCREW proof-reading that. I have no attention span so I hope I didn't go rambling off in an irrelevant tangent. I tend to do that, without having any memory of what I said. Or what was said to me. I also hope I didn't make any huge mistakes or stated incorrect facts. Yep. Let's all hope.

butter:

I'll give them a try. I know I'll be doomed to like it. Why listen to reeses at 90 bpm when you can listen to them at 175? I have tried many times to get into something else but I've always failed. No other genres will do it for me... hopefully that will change with time but it hasn't happened thus far D:

[butter]

Well, they are hip-hop but it's actually a project by two guys that used to be in Godflesh of all things. But, a very DnB influenced sound. Also try The Bug. That's one of the guy's dancehall project.

Expand those boundaries a little bit!

[Buddah Buddy]

I still love the Reese...

[atomic_(no)afro]

Some good points Nibbzious, but to follow up a little bit I do believe that the whole DJ-centric aspect of some electronic music sub-genres are somewhat holding the artists back. So your explanation that the capacity to mix between two tracks of different D&B sub-sub-genres is what keeps D&B so segmented is exactly the problem. For example, look at the Breakz scene which has evolved both in terms of its own group, and in relation to other sub-genres like House, D&B, and Trance (or Tarnce as we say it in KVR country). Now obviously you would rarely hear a Lo Fidelity Allstars track being mixed directly into a ILS track. However, there is alot more wiggle room to mix in let's say a Lee Coombs House/Breaks track alongside a FreQ. Nasty track, which depending on how funky that FreQ. Nasty track is could be mixed into something that's borderline Broken Beat (like Bugz In The Attic), and of course from there any number of different sub-genres could be dropped.

Ideally, there would be NO defining genres, sub-genres, sub-sub-genres in electronic music, as defining a certain track as electronic (in the broad sense, which includes electronic hip-hop) is sufficient to describe our particular sound. Of course, we live in the real world, so some categorization is necessary for consumers to wade through the sheer volume of material out there. But to close yourself off, to say that only this narrow range of ideas is the kind music I will allow myself to play as a musician, producer, or DJ is counterproductive and limits the full expression of one’s creativity. Even worse are punters (sorry for using the same term again, but it's the best one to use in this case), who so fetishes one single musical space that they end up missing a whole world of sounds around them. I must admit that for a time I was like this with Nu Skool Breakz, but have since at the very least expanded my horizons to the wider range of electronic music (including hip-hop, dub, and dancehall).

I myself am just trying to make music in this world, not "Techno" or "Breakz" or "D&B". It's sometimes good to be self-conscious as it narrows one's focus, but it's important not to loose sight of the bigger picture which is the creation of music as ART not CRAFT.

ATA

[Cabinfever]

An interesting read, but you do realize how incredibly microscopic this subject is ? The nuances being discussed here apply to such a tiny sliver of music that it's almost comic.

It's like two eskimos discussing the qualities of a certain snowfall around a particular rock from November 1948.

[deastman]

An interesting read, but you do realize how incredibly microscopic this subject is ? The nuances being discussed here apply to such a tiny sliver of music that it's almost comic.

It's like two eskimos discussing the qualities of a certain snowfall around a particular rock from November 1948.

I agree. Personally, I like listening to a bit of DnB once in a while, but I'm not into the "scene" and have no idea who any of the movers and shakers are. I listened to the mp3 sample posted earlier, which was presumably intended to show how diverse DnB basslines can be. I listened, and thought ot myself "Yep, sounds like more of the same." Sure, some basses were brighter than others, and the patterns were different, but basically it still sounds like DnB.

You're missing the forest for the trees here. It isn't about whether people can make a unique bassline for a DnB song. Its about whether DnB AS A WHOLE is a dated genre. And in my humble opinion, it is! That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to listen to it exclusively for the next 20 years- go right ahead! You'll just find yourself dated, like the rest of us

I've tried to keep my mind open to new musical trends over the years... industrial, techno, house, ambient, idm, dnb, glitch, whatever. A lot of good stuff out there. But truth be told, my heart and soul are firmly entrenched in late 80s synthpop. So yes, I'm dated.

[atomic_(no)afro]

An interesting read, but you do realize how incredibly microscopic this subject is ? The nuances being discussed here apply to such a tiny sliver of music that it's almost comic.

It's like two eskimos discussing the qualities of a certain snowfall around a particular rock from November 1948.

Very funny Cabin, and so very true. I must admit that sometimes electronic musicians and their fans come across as the musical equivalent of Trekkies. God we are so nerdy

ATA
PS, to paraphrase a typical nerdy question:

Who would win in a fight, D&B or Gabba?

[Wopelka]

back on topic,

my idea, which i don't have time to develop now, is that more you rely on the production side of things (sounds, effects) more your music risks to be dated one day or another. for instance, some music of the 70's don't sound dated at all, because the production is not the goal in itself, but the servant of real musical ideas.