A wierd copywrite law question

[rogerperrin]

Can any of you hypocrites spell "royalty?" I can: R-O-Y-A-L-T-Y "So come visit Mr Rogers Neighborhood."

Equilibrium has a valid usage issue here. And he is not simply stealing for the love of money. He is involved in a valuable and valid educational process with his book. Education is all about learning from the Pros - or someone who has higher knowledge. Was it considered stealing when you all played "Stairway to Heaven," or "Smoke on the Water" for friends at a party? There is fair usage vs. shameless exploitation.

Let's face it, some of us learn better from books such as Equilibrium's until we develop the "ear" to learn from CD's, on our own. Too, once someone has taught you how to "teach yourself" then you can learn on your own.

Equilibrium, in what country do you live ?, and to what countries do you anticipate selling your book? This will be essential to know to solve your delimma. PM me if you would like. I am a paralegal in years past, and I might be able to point you to the right Law/codes to help you. I can tell you this much, that it may still be true that if you (Print)publish a different (sheetmusic) arrangement of a (audio) recorded song for say a marching band, you get to collect the songwriter royalties on your arrangement - while claiming credit as arranger and still giving credit to the original writer(s). (In the U.S.)

I'll look into this some and PM you in a day or two.

[Equilibrium]

Can any of you hypocrites spell "royalty?" I can: R-O-Y-A-L-T-Y "So come visit Mr Rogers Neighborhood."

Equilibrium has a valid usage issue here. And he is not simply stealing for the love of money. He is involved in a valuable and valid educational process with his book. Education is all about learning from the Pros - or someone who has higher knowledge. Was it considered stealing when you all played "Stairway to Heaven," or "Smoke on the Water" for friends at a party? There is fair usage vs. shameless exploitation.

Let's face it, some of us learn better from books such as Equilibrium's until we develop the "ear" to learn from CD's, on our own. Too, once someone has taught you how to "teach yourself" then you can learn on your own.

Equilibrium, in what country do you live ?, and to what countries do you anticipate selling your book? This will be essential to know to solve your delimma. PM me if you would like. I am a paralegal in years past, and I might be able to point you to the right Law/codes to help you. I can tell you this much, that it may still be true that if you (Print)publish a different (sheetmusic) arrangement of a (audio) recorded song for say a marching band, you get to collect the songwriter royalties on your arrangement - while claiming credit as arranger and still giving credit to the original writer(s). (In the U.S.)

I'll look into this some and PM you in a day or two.

Thanks for this info, will PM asap.

[Equilibrium]

This is a letter I got back from Rhythm magazine in the UK

Hi ***

I spoke to our legal people and they have said that if you are replicating drum parts exactly as they are on record you are breaching copyright laws and you are breaking the law if you do so.

If they aren't exactly the same as the original then you are in a better position (as we are all guilty of writing a song which sounds a lot like another song!) but it is up to you to decide if it could be considered copying.

So the bottom line is, you cannot copy other people's drum parts for your publication, unless you have permission.

I hope this is of some help?

Thanks

***

I might just go about seeking permission from each record label What a pain, this is ridiculous I'm going to have to get permission from some of the most money grabbing labels in the world. I just can't imagine Polydor giving me anything away for free. I might just allow myself to be in a position to get sued, I really don't care about the money, but I am not compensating for what I believe to be one of the ten best books ever written for the drum kit. That isn't a delusion of granduer, I have had this book in me for years.

[herodotus]

I might just allow myself to be in a position to get sued, I really don't care about the money, but I am not compensating for what I believe to be one of the ten best books ever written for the drum kit. That isn't a delusion of granduer, I have had this book in me for years.

Well, its not like your book has much competition, is it?

Seriously, the drumset is the most pedagogically underrepresented instrument there is. I have learned far more over the years figuring stuff out with pencil and staff paper then I have gotten from all of the books I have seen combined, and I have seen many.

Why can't you just take the approach of 'The Drummers Cookbook' and similar books? Present the information like in a theory book: not 'this break was written by this guy', but categorized by tempo, feel, time signature and such. You would then be no more at risk than any other writer of instrumental instruction materials.

[Equilibrium]

I might just allow myself to be in a position to get sued, I really don't care about the money, but I am not compensating for what I believe to be one of the ten best books ever written for the drum kit. That isn't a delusion of granduer, I have had this book in me for years.

Well, its not like your book has much competition, is it?

Seriously, the drumset is the most pedagogically underrepresented instrument there is. I have learned far more over the years figuring stuff out with pencil and staff paper then I have gotten from all of the books I have seen combined, and I have seen many.

There is certainly truth to that, but certain books like The Art Of Bop Drumming, The New Breed, Stick Control, Afro Cuban Rhythms for drumset, and all the Gary Chaffee books are very artfully constructed and have furthered 'kit' drumming as a whole. A drummer who hasn't been through The New Breed will always been a part of the 'old breed' in terms of their lacking sophisticated coordination. There haven't been a great deal of high standard books written for the drumset, but the ones that have, do matter, and the people who haven't studied them tend to lag behind in certain areas of their playing.

Why can't you just take the approach of 'The Drummers Cookbook' and similar books? Present the information like in a theory book: not 'this break was written by this guy', but categorized by tempo, feel, time signature and such. You would then be no more at risk than any other writer of instrumental instruction materials.

I can't quite understand what your getting at? I haven't Read the Drummers Cookbook either, so I guess that doesn't help. I do want to present things for what they are is the thing. I want to be able to say this was this drummer on this records, and such and such. People in classical theory books always say it was this composer, this piece, and this is why it has been chosen. Why can't that be extended to 'popular' music?

[Equilibrium]

may I also add that if the Rhythm magazines response is true, then all drum tab websites are in breach of the law.

[herodotus]

I do want to present things for what they are is the thing. I want to be able to say this was this drummer on this records, and such and such. People in classical theory books always say it was this composer, this piece, and this is why it has been chosen. Why can't that be extended to 'popular' music?

Well, if the 'classical' works are still copyright (which many since 1940 still are, unfortunately) then they do have to clear their examples in some cases. But things are changing for the worse as we speak. What held 10 years ago might no longer apply in this hyperlitigious era.

Personally, I would have just written the book and damn the consequnces. But I am reckless that way, so don't listen to me.

Good Luck!

[nuffink]

Personally, I would have just written the book and damn the consequnces.

Good advice. What's the worst that could happen? The samizdat glamour of the legendary fake books?

[Equilibrium]

I do want to present things for what they are is the thing. I want to be able to say this was this drummer on this records, and such and such. People in classical theory books always say it was this composer, this piece, and this is why it has been chosen. Why can't that be extended to 'popular' music?

Personally, I would have just written the book and damn the consequnces. But I am reckless that way, so don't listen to me.

Good Luck!

Thanks, I might just go down that road, I'm just tight for money at the moment, and I can't afford to take out time for being sued.

[eduardo_b]

Sorry I didn't reply your posts for such a time but I wasn't aware that there had been any responses since I last checked. Both your posts are wonderfully informative and precisely the type of information that I have been trying to obtain. If I may ask, can you remember or do you know where you learned that drum patterns are not copyright protected? If I could confirm that that would be wonderful.

Been gone for a week and just checked posts for this thread. My suggestion is to simply not attribute any drum sequences to anyone. It's that easy. Who is going to claim that theirs was used without permission, and how would they support that claim? This is particularly true if you are demonstrating styles rather than citing specific songs for drum content.

You can complicate this endlessly given the intricacies of royalty, licensing and copyright laws and court decisions. I think you are well within any interpretation of fair use under the circumstances you have noted. No one is going to be deprived of their livelihood because of your book, and readers will have a valuable tool for learning more about being better drummers.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer and don't play one in any form of media, so it's only my opinion. That said, write the book.

[tee boy]

Equillibrium,

Just took the words out of muther fuckin mouth, mate! The attitude towards sample copyright on this board is insane - people are happy to use illegal samples (in the form of commerical loops and drums CD's), as long as they dont have to sample it themselves.

For the record I think that the non commercial sharing of old vinyl breaks is wonderful. It drums up (lol) interest in the old funk stuff, and opens up an entirely new world of sonic possibilities. I take my hat off to people like Declassified for compile such comprehensive breaks packs for us to use.

Ofcourse, if you release something and make money, then pay up. But this 'theft is theft' attitude is just silly. And i fear it has been spread by the very people who sell unlicensed soundware for a living Using unlicensed samples is nothing like theft, neither is it like using cracked software. NOBODY gets hurt if you use illegal samples in un-released tracks (except ofcourse the people who would SELL you those unlicensed sounds for hard earned cash).

If you want a realistic take on sampling, copyright law, whats cool, and whats not... then read my 'Mylo' thread on this forum:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110846