outsider electronistes?

[vurt]

sorry steven,was a rejtoric question,not directed at you altho i followed your post

but thanks for your insight...
for me personally id say the same sort of thing,ive never worried if people liked my stuff or not,yeah i think its great when people do like it but my intention isnt praise my real intention is basically to see what i/my equipment is actually capable of.im still learning and i guess i usually enjoy my mistakes more than my successes
but again am i an outsider?i dont do anything special,i dont have any amazing magical secrets or even skills,i just like to make noise do things other people dont always appreciate

[sonictree]

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check this out and see what you think about my idea of outsider music.

http://music.download.com/theserotoninanvil (http://music.download.com/theserotoninanvil)

mabee, mabee not

[JayBird]

I'm on the outside, starring inside, at a T.V. playing cool commercial marketing concepts to appeal to those anti establishment types, who fancy themselves as outsiders, with the eyes in the back of my head.

[dystonia_ek]

greetings kvrrs.

i would like your opinions on whether the concept of the "outsider" has relevance within the field of contemporary electronic music.

by outsider i mean someone whose music does not inhabit a genre/style (ambient, idm, etc.) or a simple mix of genres (ambient+goth, trance+hardcore, etc.). someone whose music stands outside of the known, outside of tradition/history/fashion.

are there any outsiders around these days?

thanks for your help,

rachMiel

There are a few. You just have to dig. Some eventually become insiders though, if only through finding an audience.

One of the better known was Maurizio Bianchi, though his conversion by the Jehovah's Witnesses and subsequent retirement changed his approach to life and art dramatically (he's since returned to recording with a very different attitude). But his output from 1979-1984 remains probably the definitive electronic outsider statement. For an interesting and insightful overview of MB's work, see http://www.brainwashed.com/axis/mb/mbpt01.htm .

In terms of currently working artists, I'd suggest checking out Jessica Rylan - totally genre-defying and sonically unique. http://www.irfp.net/

Other than that, there are many entire outsider genres that eventually mainstreamed to a degree, such as the vast post-industrial diaspora of tape traders in the 1980's - certainly organisations like Broken Flag and Come Org were far outside what was acceptable even in the independent scene in the early 80's, though the former eventually drifted back to rock music and the latter's flagship group Whitehouse has been getting regular press in highbrow circles for the last few years.

Other recommendations:

AMM (especially in the context of the 60's and '70s - the world has caught up with them since)
Caroliner Rainbow
Vagina Dentata Organ
The New Blockaders/Mixed Band Philanthropist
all the Fflint Central people (Berkowitz Lake & Dahmer, etc.)
Anomali
Lucisferrato / LC
Ramleh (1982-84 period, see 'We created it, let's take it over vols. I-III' on RRRecords)
Merzbow (1980-90 period - he's since become just about the only noise artist to cross over into the mainstream)

[splattabreakz]

blah

[shamann]

Nothing much contemporary been mentioned here. But I think that's part of the problem with the concept of outsider music. Many/most outsiders receive acknowledgement only long after the bulk of their work has been done: Harry Partch, Raymond Scott, Moondog, Conlon Nancarrow, etc. While they were maybe known here and there during their lives, their major props came late in life or posthumously. So we might have to wait a while to know what the historians will dub the great outsiders of our times. And presumably the greatest outsiders are the ones we never hear about.

Around here, xoxos qualifies as outsider to my mind. His stuff really comes out of leftfield, all automated, semi-random software routines.

Check some of it out here:
http://www.xoxos.net/stochastic.m3u

[dystonia_ek]

Good call re: Rurik - his stuff definitely qualifies.

[rachmiel]

steven,

i finally got around to spending some time with your music (on soundclick and mixposure). it's fun and funny and smart and takes chances: well done! for me, you are more of a culture jammer (eclectic) than outsider. pretty much all the pieces are based on de-interpretations of well-known genres/styles. i'd love to see how you do with this little outsider training exercise:

write a piece that uses sounds, melodies, rhythms, form, etc., all of which you have *never* heard before. be scrupulous: if you find yourself using something that reminds you of something you've heard (even in your own music), delete it. you might end up with silence ... perhaps that's how cage got there?

rachMiel

[rachmiel]

> being 90% hermit im more "insider" than "outsider"

but this brings up a fascinating question: are musical hermits, by definition, outsiders? (outsider, again, in the sense of standing outside genres/styles.)

rachMiel

[rachmiel]

> is there really art for art sake - beauty for beautys these days?

good questions. personally, as much as i think about my "audience" when i create a piece of music (and i do think a lot about audience, who will listen, what they expect and whether i want to fulfill their expectations, thwart them, challenge them, tease them, etc.) the entity i'm really writing for is MUSIC itself.

rachMiel

[rachmiel]

> but whats outside to someone makes complete sense to someone else

beauty (and understanding?) is in the ear of the beholder ...

rachMiel

[rachmiel]

> a true 'outsider' will immerse themselves into something irrelevant to their current and past influences and absorb what they can from it. The mere fact that someone is absorbing something that 'peer pressure', 'label', or 'dedication' says they shouldn't... That's what makes them an 'outsider' to me.

> The fact I know that, and carry on regardless in the face of it... I don't have too many friends, fans, and lucrative long term deals coming my way. And it's getting cold and lonely out here indeed.

a couple of things:

1. i think it takes great courage and passion to *choose* to be (to remain) a non-cynical, non-jaded, non-bitter outsider, because the world is not going to show much support, and we are all creatures that need to be applauded, admired, loved.

2. one of the toughest things about being an outsider, i think, is that it is very difficult to get useful feedback, critique, help from listeners ... either because they are not interested in listening (your music is too weird!) or are not able to listen openly and critically. without peer feedback, outsiders can easily become more and more private (dwelling in their tiny idiosyncratic corner of the sonic world) ... which, at worst, becomes like a private joke ... without meaning to those not in on it.

rachMiel

[rachmiel]

> what makes you an outisder anyway?

for me, you become an "outsider" when you begin to trust your personal musical taste over the tastes that are foisted on you by radio, labels, web sites, fashion, etc. because, if you really do this, trust yourself, look to yourself for inspiration/motivation, the music you write will, of necessity, thwart/bend genres, stand outside the norm (which is largely a product of people buying into that which is foisted upon them).

rachMiel

[dystonia_ek]

>
1. i think it takes great courage and passion to *choose* to be (to remain) a non-cynical, non-jaded, non-bitter outsider, because the world is not going to show much support, and we are all creatures that need to be applauded, admired, loved.

2. one of the toughest things about being an outsider, i think, is that it is very difficult to get useful feedback, critique, help from listeners ... either because they are not interested in listening (your music is too weird!) or are not able to listen openly and critically. without peer feedback, outsiders can easily become more and more private (dwelling in their tiny idiosyncratic corner of the sonic world) ... which, at worst, becomes like a private joke ... without meaning to those not in on it.

Point 1: No-one 'chooses' to be an outsider. One is or isn't. It's not some sort of artistic choice, but something that happens when someone realises that everything that they are represents some sort of foreign object lodged in the host body of their culture. Outsider art is almost invariably unconcerned with, if not hostile to, notions of style and aesthetic.

Point 2: Outsider art tends to be completely unconcerned with peer feedback, criticism, and especially 'help'. Outsiders tend to be solitaries, and regard themselves as the best authority on whatever it is they're doing.

You seem to be headed toward the idea that outsider art/music is some sort of aesthetic or stylistic phenomena. I would argue that outsiders creates by necessity more than anything else, and are generally unconcerned by anything that gets in the way of free expression.

Even the most unlistenable noise has an audience these days - the sound of something doesn't determine outsider status. The attitude of the maker and the perspective from which the work is made is the deciding factor.

A strict definition of outsider art would have to discount anything made deliberately in a particular style to appeal to a particular audience. Even the distribution of such art or music to any audience at all could be seen as compromise, though outsiders often tend to want to communicate something they feel is extremely important, the nature of which usually lies outside the bounds of what their host culture/society sees as interesting or acceptable.

A really strict definition would have to deny the possibility of an audience at all, apart from the artist him/herself. It would be impossible to analyse or pick apart, since no-one would ever see or hear it, or even hear about it, since artefacts of this type tend to be spontaneous and unrecorded or distributed via arcane methods like burial in the earth instead of finding their way into shops, galleries, and mailorder services.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts.

[shamann]

Yeah, the concept of 'outsider music' never struck me as being of a recognizable style, even if it were an anti-style. For example, there are no aesthetic links between Daniel Johnston, Wesley Willis, or Bruce Haack. The characteristics that best link them is that they plunked away at their style of music which seemed entirely invented by themselves, whether or not anyone was listening. But lots of outsider stuff also conforms to a lot of recognizable popular styles, it just does it in an odd way.

As a result, the concept of "the oddball" or social misfit is also something that defines outsider music. Someone who doesn't fit in, or is unable to conform to social stricture. Many "outsiders" have complicated mental illnesses/conditions.

Harry Partch was once a hobo, and invented both his own formal system of music and his own instruments to play it. Wesley Willis was a schizophrenic and homeless, and sang off-key about whatever band was playing in Chicago that night over pre-fab Casiotone accompaniment. Raymond Scott wrote lullabies and advert jingles with an advanced electronic studio of his own design, and steadfastly refused to share his technology. Captain Beefheart wrote music that sounded like they were all drunk and falling apart, yet strangely all of those points were deliberate and skillfully used to accent the music. Not all outsider music is good or innovative either, a lot of it is just slathered in Kitsch. Stuff like Tiny Tim, or some of those novelty albums from the 60s by TV actors.

I hope Meffy stops in. He's mentioned listening to a lot of stuff that could be considered outsider.