outsider electronistes?

[dystonia_ek]

Good observations, Steve. Partch is a good example. Some other folks that come to mind that maybe haven't been mentioned:

Tiny Tim
Jandek
Keiji Haino
John Balance (though he found a more comfortable niche than most)
David Tibet (who could easily escape notice, but spend some time in the same room with the guy and it's pretty obvious that he fits the bill)
Baby Dee
Little Fyodor
John Duncan (who also found a comfortable niche, eventually, after having been thrown out of a few countries - but I can't think of many other contemporary artists whose leaps into the abyss have been so fearless and determined - many people might question this but a perusal of his writings should be convincing enough - 'outside' does not always equal 'insane')
Andrew MacKenzie (or is he?)

Thought about adding Julian Cope to that list... but I can't figure out whether it's all an act or not on his part.

[rachmiel]

> Point 1: No-one 'chooses' to be an outsider. One is or isn't.

the kind of outsider i'm talking about (and here we go into semantics!) is one who *can* and *does* make the choice. perhaps he becomes an outsider due to necessities beyond his control, thus has no obvious choice in the matter. but at the point where he becomes conscious of his outsider ness, forks appear in the road: to what extent should i remain outside or should i venture inside; should i remain not of this world or become part of it.

> Point 2: Outsider art tends to be completely unconcerned with peer feedback, criticism, and especially 'help'. Outsiders tend to be solitaries, and regard themselves as the best authority on whatever it is they're doing.

again, semantics. i'm thinking i should come up with another term; "outsider" is too loaded with historical meaning. my outsider chooses to be largely separate from, but somewhat part of the world. no one is an island ...

thanks for your thoughts, dystonia.

rachMiel

[shamann]

I definitely wouldn't refer to it as outsider art, then. "Outsider Art/Music" is a fairly well-established concept. See here for more:

http://www.keyofz.com/keyofz/
http://musicformaniacs.blogspot.com/

What you mean might best be described simply as iconoclastic, alienated, disaffected or anti-establishment. Might even run parallel to Kyle Gann's concept of Uptown versus Downtown (which seems a bit parochial these days).

"Outsider" is commonly used for stuff that doesn't fit in, and often seems that it is a little broken, not stuff that chooses to run contrary.

[dystonia_ek]

@Rachmiel: Sounds like you're just looking for 'genreless' more than anything else. That's a pretty subjective area... hard to find a consensus.

[DWb]

What you mean might best be described simply as iconoclastic, alienated, disaffected or anti-establishment. Might even run parallel to Kyle Gann's concept of Uptown versus Downtown (which seems a bit parochial these days).

*goes and googles*
http://www.kylegann.com/downtown.html

It's certainly rather parochial, prone to sweeping generalization, and in the UK at least, rather out of date.

OTOH he makes some very interesting points.

My favorite arbitrary divison of the moment is beatnik vs avant yob, though.

http://www.woebot.com/movabletype/archives/000796.html

[shamann]

My favorite arbitrary divison of the moment is beatnik vs avant yob, though.

http://www.woebot.com/movabletype/archives/000796.html

That's excellent. I had a good laugh through it.

I really like Kyle Gann's writing, but it does at times all seem to be oblivious to much of the rest of the world, and instead focuses one little ghetto of musicdom and merely reinforces the class stratification that it purports to attack.

[rachmiel]

> I definitely wouldn't refer to it as outsider art, then. "Outsider Art/Music" is a fairly well-established concept.

> What you mean might best be described simply as iconoclastic, alienated, disaffected or anti-establishment. Might even run parallel to Kyle Gann's concept of Uptown versus Downtown (which seems a bit parochial these days).

> "Outsider" is commonly used for stuff that doesn't fit in, and often seems that it is a little broken, not stuff that chooses to run contrary.

thanks, shamann, very helpful. yes, i think i've painted myself in a corner i didn't want to end up in by trying to change the definition of a commonly used term. i've been in this corner before, and i'm sure i'll be there again. you'd think i'd learn ...

so let's drop the use of "outsider" ... but continue the discussion, ja?

uptown/downtown is an oversimplified but useful classification scheme i use all the time to refer to musicians that move in the academic world (university) vs. those who live in the real world (street). now i'm not saying that the academic world is not real; if this were true, there would be tens of thousands of very outspoken ghosts walking around (getting grants and filling journals). and i also don't believe in the "vs." ... although i get a kick out of saying it.

but let's not use uptown/downtown: it's too ... conventional.

iconoclastic, alienated, disaffected or anti-establishment ... all come close to what i'm talking about. but they all sound so dull and known and merely decriptive. (same for outsider, i guess.) we need a new term to describe those musicians whose imagination "perambulates to a different drummer." something sexy and visceral and smart ... 50/50 left and right brain.

ideas?

now to home in on what i'm talking about a bit more lucidly: i mean the kind of person who respects and values everything and everyone, all critiques welcome and taken to heart, all music met with openness and generosity ... but who, ultimately, heeds his own advice/intuition above all others. this kind of person (ueberKomponist? ) remains immune to fashion (except insofar as it resonates with his musical persona, helps him in his personal musical journey), to popularity, to the kind of game that turns a brilliant inspired musician into a record-label cardboard standup genre-drenched doll. by definition, he would have to be an eclectic, in the sense that he would be influenced by everything. but he would be one of a kind (as we all are!), because he would not be controlled by anything but his own vision.

i'm talking about someone who composes his self, in all its utter uniqueness (and connectedness).

rachMiel

[Gargoyle]

Liberated?

[rachmiel]

> Liberated?

i love the message ... that these noNamers have freed themselves, escaped the box. but, again, the word itself feels too known and loaded to me.

thanks.

rachMiel