KVR Audio

omo · Post by **omo** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:58 pm

I've done some 8bit work for games in the past and mbit was a great dyscovery for me. Simply the best, imho.

RapRogue · Post by **RapRogue** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:05 pm

Funny thing with waves, is that their dithering is a
deprovement 2> (hope this word gets official soon!).

I tend to view dithering as distribution of energy,
certain tracks benefits from equal spread energy others
not.

Seus Hawkins · Post by **Seus Hawkins** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:41 pm

Just commenting on the word deprovement....wouldn't that just be provement instead? Like deconstruction, construction, destabilize..... since it's used as a negation of a word.

Regards

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:07 pm

RapRogue, noise-shaped dithering is a spectral re-distribution (shaping) of quantization noise.

This poses one important moment: what was the structure of the quantization noise in the first place. From what I know, this depends on the program material being dithered. I've did some tests on subjective quality of this quantization noise and it does change from track to track - to the same degree as different dithering methods differ. At low signal levels (at levels noise-shaping can be heard) such differences become quite important in my opinion.

Innominandum · Post by **Innominandum** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:09 pm

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:It's a thing of taste, totally. As far as dithering is correct (prevents truncation errors and thus spectral 'spikes' from appearing), you can choose whatever sounds best.

BTW, if I haven't told you yet, r8brain pro RULES!!

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:10 pm

Innominandum, I get your drift, but r8brain PRO does not fit this thread.

RapRogue · Post by **RapRogue** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:55 pm

Seus Hawkins wrote:Just commenting on the word deprovement....wouldn't that just be provement instead? Like deconstruction, construction, destabilize..... since it's used as a negation of a word.

Regards

Guess it's the 'iem' that makes it hard to use. An
acronymn for im/provment, de/provment. But now we
getting into linguistics...I guess you could call it
de/im/provment as provement is not the root word.

Aleksey Vaneev wrote:RapRogue, noise-shaped dithering is a re-distribution (shaping) of quantization noise.

This poses one important moment: what was the structure of the quantization noise in the first place. From what I know, this depends on the program material being dithered. I've did some tests on subjective quality of this quantization noise and it does change from track to track - to the same degree as different dithering methods differ. At low signal levels such differences become quite important in my opinion.

Yep, I agree jazz and classical music comes to mind.

It's noise, but in my mind I view it as energy. Based
on that info I can then chose what would benefit the
track the most. Enhance the current flow of energy, or
brake it.

Edit spellling.

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 11:09 pm

I know dithering is subjective, definately but like omo pointed out, some simply work much better than others to suppress digital artefacts when going from higher to lower bit depth and going from 32/24 to 8 bit, megabit max absolutely KILLS everything else, period.

Now, going to 16bit is a whole different game. I'm not too picky about dithering and mostly use Elephant as that's the only product I own that does dithering (other than FL Studio). For me it works fine but I have heard megabit max,apogee UV22 Hr, POW-r and L2 and from this bunch IMHO megabit max sounds 90% of the time, best.

- bManic

Doug1 · Post by **Doug1** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:41 am

I think you guys should do some more tests including elephants dither.
Normal listening volume without looping on the fades at the end.

I know that the fades are the area's in digital audio of great importance but just because you hear less dither in a fade or at high gain in the dither shoot out does not mean the dither is suitable.

I found the dither of my choice is more prominent at the fades than the other dithers but
throughout the song it is least damaging.

I find dither such as IDR-type 2 ultra noise shaping is quite damaging to the song
but quite inaudible at the fades.

Anything with high noise shaping should be seriously considered before implementation.

If you cant hear the actual dither as much as others during a fade then the chances are
it has a high noise shaping dithering algorithm.
I have found that with good monitors this high noise shaping is not optimal at all.

seitn · Post by **seitn** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:15 pm

T-Racks >voxengo

Ocean Zen · Post by **Ocean Zen** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:05 pm

Another vote for Ozone

Great Limiter

marcanw · Post by **marcanw** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:43 pm

Ozone 2 or 3, just the limiter. Between Waves L2 (L3 is not good) and Ozone, I often prefer Ozone. And not only for the dithering. You can get a hotter track without noticeable problems... when L2 is getting harsh..

M'Snah · Post by **M'Snah** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:45 pm

It's nice to see an old thread get new life

Xenos · Post by **Xenos** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:07 pm

I humbly recommend voxengo plugs...excellent quality without breaking the bank.

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:17 am

fritzman wrote:I suggest that if you're that unsure about these things that you better start mastering with the good free plugins to see how far they get you.

Digitalfishphones.com stuff, really good with lotsa character.
TLs Maximizer, simply good.
TLs Pocket limiter, simply good with a different sound.
PLParEQ, the best mastering VST EQ out there, free or not.

This stuff alone would be enough to get really good masterings done if you would know (or learn) how to do it.

I totally agree here as I'm mostly mastering with free plugins or "cheap deals" (which is a nono for a lot of people) only, and I get very good results that's not too prominent. However I'm not going hotter than K-12 from the K-System anyway.

In my chain is always the TLs Maximizer as master limiter because it sounds that good. However I can also recommend DigitalFishphones, Kjaerhus Classic (basicly for in-depth engineering, the Gold and Pro series are also worth checking out), SlimSlow Slider (one of the best dirt cheap multiband and Sidecaining compressors I know), Buzroom (some of the stuff is actually nice), Yohng W1 (which is aimed to recreate the Waves L1 limiter, however I barely use it) and for subtile exciting I almost always use Elogoxa X-Citer or CLAS.

But I can always recommend Voxengo and Kjaerhus Audio, if you got a bit more money, even PSP (the master limiter). Waves is just overpriced, and I don't like "all in one" solutions with presets and the like. This is not engineering in my opinion.

ozone or Voxengo Mastering Suite or ....