Masterverb 5

[daverich]

Damn C/R - totally out of the question. I'm guessing that this serial number is unique to the particular PC hardware setup? So if you change anything, or upgrade to a new PC, you lose the use of this product? What is the point of buying software that you can't use long term? And what is the point in discouraging sales of your software? Right now, hackers are responding to the "challenge" part of this C/R scheme, so there is a small ray of hope that cracked versions might be avaialable as a backup for paying customers ...

It's always the same ... honest customers who just want to buy software get pissed on, while the criminals do what criminals will do anyway. I don't get it.

So instead of buying a dozen software verbs that will evaporate next time I upgrade my PC (fairly soon as it happens), I think I should be looking at hardware again.

Thankfully, there are some vendors who make excellent reverb and treat their customers fairly. www.artsacoustic.com

I think you should read what wavearts have said about this before spouting this crap.

Kind regards

Dave Rich.

[Squish]

Damn C/R - totally out of the question. I'm guessing that this serial number is unique to the particular PC hardware setup? So if you change anything, or upgrade to a new PC, you lose the use of this product? What is the point of buying software that you can't use long term? And what is the point in discouraging sales of your software? Right now, hackers are responding to the "challenge" part of this C/R scheme, so there is a small ray of hope that cracked versions might be avaialable as a backup for paying customers ...

It's always the same ... honest customers who just want to buy software get pissed on, while the criminals do what criminals will do anyway. I don't get it.

So instead of buying a dozen software verbs that will evaporate next time I upgrade my PC (fairly soon as it happens), I think I should be looking at hardware again.

Thankfully, there are some vendors who make excellent reverb and treat their customers fairly. www.artsacoustic.com

Greendoor,
I think everbody here knows your feelings on C/R and other copy protection schemes and I respect your opinion. I'd much rather have C/R than a dongle. Until there is something that would give the developer AND the user peace of mind I think this is a futile war you've chosen to wage.
We all can pick and choose who to support with our money as a way to wage the war, and I do. But I feel that I company that makes this good of a reverb with a reasonable C/R unlock, and great support deserves my business. Rob's already stated that they would make sure that they're costumers will be taken care of in case Wave Arts stops being and I know not all C/R developers have stated this, but they have and that gives me peace of mind and yet another reason to support them.

[bmanic]

Hmm.. I have mixed feelings about this reverb. It is a bit hard to get rid of some slight metallic ringing. I doesn't sound nearly as natural in a mix as the Arts Accousitc reverb, imho, but I could get some pretty interesting spaces that were impossible to mimic with the AA reverb.

For creating mono compatible, very small spaces and ambiences, masterverb fails miserably compared to some of the competition (room 2016, AA reverb, UA plate/dreamverb, TC classic verb etc). It sounds mostly very unnatural and metallic. Somehow the sound also moves much too far "back" instead of staying upfront, like it should with a small ambience preset. Using headphones to monitor the tweaks I sometimes even got a slight feeling of nausea.

For the money they are asking, I would say, save up 10$ more dollars and get the Arts Accoustic reverb.
It seems to blend in a mix much better and do what I am used to reverbs doing in todays modern music (that is, not to be heard but rather 'blend' the elements into a natural geeling mix). However, for more special effects type reverb and those big wobbling hall sounds for huge synths, masterverb could provide useful (although AA reverb excells in this too).

Right now, in my opinion, for 180$ I think the AA reverb is by far the best option around. Wavearts need to reconsider their price or tweak the algorithm more.

- bManic

[rpmartino]

Damn C/R - totally out of the question. I'm guessing that this serial number is unique to the particular PC hardware setup? So if you change anything, or upgrade to a new PC, you lose the use of this product? What is the point of buying software that you can't use long term? And what is the point in discouraging sales of your software? Right now, hackers are responding to the "challenge" part of this C/R scheme, so there is a small ray of hope that cracked versions might be avaialable as a backup for paying customers ...

I'm not sure I follow you. Each customer receives a serial number that allows a few registrations. You can put the plug-ins on your desktop and your laptop if you have one. If you change computers you can get another keycode. The official policy is that each single user is allowed three keycodes but I also routinely add more registrations for people when they switch machines, and I typically answer these kind of emails within an hour during business hours. The demo and full versions are one and the same so you don't have to re-download anything when you purchase the product, simply use your serial number to get an unlock at our Register page.

The way we used to to it, a serial number unlocked any copy of that particular plug-in. So a person could simply email a serial number to everyone they knew and they would be able to unlock our software. We tried to make it as easy as possible doing it like like this, but obviously you see how vulnerable this left us to piracy.

Thankfully, there are some vendors who make excellent reverb and treat their customers fairly.

Please ask any one of of our customers if they think they have been treated unfairly. I normally don't take issue with comments on forums like this but when we put forth the effort we do for customer support (and I routinely answer emails on weeknight and weekends) I find your comments to be the thing that is unfair here, as if you're trying to make us out to be the bad guys. In practice, there is no reason anyone won't be able to use something they bought from us long term no matter how many times they switch computers. If for some unforseen set of circumstances we can't physcially add more registrations to someone's serial number we will make sure you can continue to use the products by some means (whether that is unlimited registrations, or whatever).

The bottom line: if you like our reverb there is no reason our copy protection scheme should stop you from buying it.

[rpmartino]

I cannot say often enough:

I would prefer a ER Pre-delay instead of the dry pre-delay...

Thanks, your comments have been noted and you're right, this is a fairly easy thing to implement, so chances are good you'll see it in a future free update.

[rpmartino]

Hmm.. I have mixed feelings about this reverb. It is a bit hard to get rid of some slight metallic ringing. I doesn't sound nearly as natural in a mix as the Arts Accousitc reverb, imho, but I could get some pretty interesting spaces that were impossible to mimic with the AA reverb.

Do you find that reducing the high frequency components of the early or late damping helps? Our reverb algorithm has some careful modulation in the reverb tail to avoid the metallic artifacts you might hear in more simple reverbs, but when all the high frequency components are bouncing around (in effect simulating a hard wall surface like concrete or metal) then you may get a more "shrill" sensation. The high frequency early and late damping is usually the first thing I go for when trying to shape the quality of a reverb.

[bmanic]

Do you find that reducing the high frequency components of the early or late damping helps? Our reverb algorithm has some careful modulation in the reverb tail to avoid the metallic artifacts you might hear in more simple reverbs, but when all the high frequency components are bouncing around (in effect simulating a hard wall surface like concrete or metal) then you may get a more "shrill" sensation. The high frequency early and late damping is usually the first thing I go for when trying to shape the quality of a reverb.

Hi Rob,

I need to investigate your reverb a bit further before giving a full review/opinion about it but my first impressions are that the damping does help a little but it's more an artificial cure to an inherent problem. I got better results by carefully adjusting the room size one single decimal at a time and listening to how the reverb sits in the mix. Using eq on the reverb send I could notch out the most offending frequencies but with truly high quality reverbs, this is not usually needed (think TC 6000, Lexicon 960, Quantec). Also the early reflections didn't sound very natural when set to simulate a very 'small/up front' type of space. The stereo image would somehow make me a bit nauseus and want to clean my ears (this is a problem with a lot of reverbs, including the AA reverb, at some settings).

Another reverb killing test (that no native reverb solution except the age old Arboretum Hyperprism bundled, Hyper Verb, has passed) is the closed hihat + snappy snare and kick in a 100% wet small/medium room. This test is extremely hard to pass with flying colours and immediately shows the inherent problems like metallic ringing, smearing of transients or grainyness. A final test is to see how the reverb sounds in mono. The good reverbs impart a sense of space and depth, without any extra 'tone' to the sound (like a clap or rimshot), even in mono. The bad ones 'tune' the sound to whatever the inner delay lines are set to and make it sound really bad in mono.

Basically a good reverb does what a very good studio/orchestra hall does to a sound source while a bad one is that crappy basement rehersal room with parallel walls, flutter echos and generally unmusical/unbalanced frequency response.

I know I am quite demanding and some of these tests are not truly 'real world' applicable which is why everything I post about this should be taken with a bit of salt and sugar on top. However, experience has shown that reverbs passing some of these tests usually produce a more pleasing total experience.

I'll report back once I've tried the reverb some more.

Cheers!
bManic

[Frippertronix]

If you don't mind me saying, bmanic, your tests seem pretty extreme for even a $200 reverb. Did AA pass any of those 100% wet tests you mentioned?

Yes a relly superb native reverb would be a dream come true, but we can only ask so much, since there isn't one that I've heard that can hang with M6000 or Lexi 960. Just the facts of the game at this point.

[kylen]

Please ask any one of of our customers if they think they have been treated unfairly. I normally don't take issue with comments on forums like this but when we put forth the effort we do for customer support (and I routinely answer emails on weeknight and weekends)...

Confirmed by a Wave Arts customer...

[kilroy]

I think alot of the sonic anomolies being described here are, to one degree or another, going to be present in *any* reverb model that does not take a rather in depth approach to designing closed space modeling algos round what could be thought of as "true space" environments.

At least, in my own experience, this appears to be the case.

Sadly, the difficulty is in developing sophisticated surface collision engines that can sustain the intense loads necessary to render the complex interactions found in closed space environments...all whilst operating in a suitable real time capacity.

Vision is one thing...implementation quite the other.

To tell the truth, reverb is one of those things that is quite difficult to qualify, because if what you are using for a benchmark reference are the characteristics of *real* live environments...well then, I suppose we might all be disappointed. Funnily, though the high end boxes do decent reverb FX, they arguably still don't sound very *real*.

And so, the question lingers as it always has...just what *is* a good reverb anyroad?

[MacQ]

Please ask any one of of our customers if they think they have been treated unfairly. I normally don't take issue with comments on forums like this but when we put forth the effort we do for customer support (and I routinely answer emails on weeknight and weekends)...

Confirmed by a Wave Arts customer...

And another ... in my case my email address was screwed up, so Rob personally sent me my response code ... on a Saturday, no less. This was all within 10 minutes or so of my actual order being confirmed.

Top-notch customer support! Rob is the man.

~MacQ

[bmanic]

If you don't mind me saying, bmanic, your tests seem pretty extreme for even a $200 reverb. Did AA pass any of those 100% wet tests you mentioned?

Yes a relly superb native reverb would be a dream come true, but we can only ask so much, since there isn't one that I've heard that can hang with M6000 or Lexi 960. Just the facts of the game at this point.

No, AA does not pass the 100% wet test perfectly but it does pass it better than Masterverb. If you read my longer post again you'll see that I even specified what native reverb DOES pass the test with flying colors, namely, arboretum's Hyper Verb. It's been out for like 4 years, or even more? So it's not up to CPU usage but rather knowledge of a good algorithm.

Here's a link to the Hyper Prism plugin collection (most of the plugins in this bundle are extremely bad but the reverb stands out).

- bManic

[kmonkey]

I realy dont care how it sounds in mono...And for that money and that CPU usage you CANT find better. Blending in the mix is no problem with this reverb...(there is still chance that maybe i dont know anything )

[bmanic]

To tell the truth, reverb is one of those things that is quite difficult to qualify, because if what you are using for a benchmark reference are the characteristics of *real* live environments...well then, I suppose we might all be disappointed. Funnily, though the high end boxes do decent reverb FX, they arguably still don't sound very *real*.

Exactly, but the question is not about wether it sounds 'real' or not but rather, how much harm does it do to the original sound and mix? Think of it as a concert hall. That's not really a natural room either but it sounds better than most peoples living rooms.

- bManic

[bmanic]

Ok, looks like I was wrong about the Hyper Verb from Arboretum. It is good but time has definately clouded my judgement. I just downloaded the demo and it's a bit worse than I remeber. It does sound more natural than both Masterverb and AA reverb, in mono and has a smoother sound over all but it doesn't pass the 100% wet test with flying colors (like a TC 6000 does). The hyper verb seems to have some problems with the early reflections panning everything left. So it probably has some troubles with the haas effect of the early reflections or something like that.

I'll post some sound examples in a while.

- bManic