I think if you're expecting any sim to be exactly the same as a miked amp, you're going to be disappointed. The question is whether the sound will work for you or not.
The comment about the impulses being closest are probably accurate IMO, and work for the same reason impulse reverbs do: the modeling is following an actual physical architecture. Still, there is SO much going on with a guitar signal that any plugin is going to have to perform a HUGE number of computations to work it all out.
Think about this: you're taking the guitar signal from the 1/4" jack, maybe thru a preamp of some kind, & into the computer. From there, the computer must not only simulate the reactions of the tubes & electronics, but also then the speaker & cabinet, then the air in the room (temperature, humidity, etc. are actually a factor), the microphone of choice & its physical placement, and possibly the sound as it would be processed by the preamp-console-recorder chain before you would have a replica of a guitar sound recorded in a traditional manner.
Now, while doing all of this you'd also have to do it fast enough that the latency wouldn't become such that someone couldn't play live through it...
Bottom line is, it's still out of reach of the average plugin to do so. They do get better all the time, but in the end it's still a compromise - just like MP3 vs. CD vs. real sound. It's up to you as to whether you can live with it or not.
Amp sim plugins and Tracktion
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- KVRist
- 164 posts since 3 Apr, 2005 from Roanoke, VA
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
My opinions, stated many times and likely to be stated again at some point in time in the near future (since the subject comes up a lot!) are:
1. There is a LOT of difference between a "cranked" amp sim being played through studio monitors of dubious quality (large and awesome monitors would be a different story) or headphones, and an actual cranked amp.
2. There is a BIT of a difference between an amp sim by itself (ie. not in a mix) and an amp that has been recorded and is now being played back through the same listening device as the sim.
3. There is negligible difference between a good amp sim and a good amp, once mixed into a song.
4. Good ears and good engineering are actually what's king. You have more variables to worry about when micing an amp: volume, mic choice, mic position, tone (more important because you can't change it later unless you have a reamping scheme set up), the room it's being recorded in. You can't really screw up an amp sim yourself, though you can improve upon it yourself. By the same token, though, if the software engineers didn't get it right, it's hard to fix.
I'd rather the amp sim.
The MP3 vs. CD comparison is fairly apt. But it's no longer a 96kps MP3, it's more like a 384kps high-quality MP3.
Greg
1. There is a LOT of difference between a "cranked" amp sim being played through studio monitors of dubious quality (large and awesome monitors would be a different story) or headphones, and an actual cranked amp.
2. There is a BIT of a difference between an amp sim by itself (ie. not in a mix) and an amp that has been recorded and is now being played back through the same listening device as the sim.
3. There is negligible difference between a good amp sim and a good amp, once mixed into a song.
4. Good ears and good engineering are actually what's king. You have more variables to worry about when micing an amp: volume, mic choice, mic position, tone (more important because you can't change it later unless you have a reamping scheme set up), the room it's being recorded in. You can't really screw up an amp sim yourself, though you can improve upon it yourself. By the same token, though, if the software engineers didn't get it right, it's hard to fix.
I'd rather the amp sim.
The MP3 vs. CD comparison is fairly apt. But it's no longer a 96kps MP3, it's more like a 384kps high-quality MP3.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 2168 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from For me to know, for you to find out
Hey Lunch,
You've made some excellent points!
Now mind you, I have an arsenel of the Classic amps and Classic guitars, and I love this stuff, but when it's 2:00am, and the wife is sleeping, I dont think she'd really like it too much if I cranked the Marshall.
Scoops
You've made some excellent points!
Now mind you, I have an arsenel of the Classic amps and Classic guitars, and I love this stuff, but when it's 2:00am, and the wife is sleeping, I dont think she'd really like it too much if I cranked the Marshall.
Scoops
I have a really fast computer, some good mics, vintage musical instruments, and lots of fancy software. Just need some talent
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- KVRist
- 164 posts since 3 Apr, 2005 from Roanoke, VA
And that, Scoops, is the really compelling reason to use a plugin. Convenience.
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- KVRist
- 123 posts since 14 Oct, 2004 from Derbyshire U.K.
A really good producer told me once to use the smallest wattage amps at the highest level.
Like a vox ac15 on 11 with the best mics in the world.
But alas we dont all have access to such delights.
My amp is very rare proamplifiers 75w 1X12 combo which was made in kent U.K. in the late 80's it has the most awesome overdrive.
If I run this through a 4X12 Marshall cab the feedback is monumental and with good control anthe right pick ups well..it's something else.
Kind of like a transitor mesa..some will say you cant beat a mesa..but..yes there nice but twice the price.
To get back to amp sims if find the best way to get a good tone is to use Racks and just layer up with say.,
Amplitube+reverb+ a good EQ..maybe a touch of compression.
But personally I dont like to use a compressor unless it's vital.
Use the racks anfd then save then as presets.
Supercrunch..is preset I created and would suit QOTSA to a tea.
Rock on.
Like a vox ac15 on 11 with the best mics in the world.
But alas we dont all have access to such delights.
My amp is very rare proamplifiers 75w 1X12 combo which was made in kent U.K. in the late 80's it has the most awesome overdrive.
If I run this through a 4X12 Marshall cab the feedback is monumental and with good control anthe right pick ups well..it's something else.
Kind of like a transitor mesa..some will say you cant beat a mesa..but..yes there nice but twice the price.
To get back to amp sims if find the best way to get a good tone is to use Racks and just layer up with say.,
Amplitube+reverb+ a good EQ..maybe a touch of compression.
But personally I dont like to use a compressor unless it's vital.
Use the racks anfd then save then as presets.
Supercrunch..is preset I created and would suit QOTSA to a tea.
Rock on.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Your producer probably also had access to the right room. 
Even a 1-Watt amp (yup, they make them, and a half-watt amp, too!) will easily shake the floor and windows of an apartment when cranked.
An AC15 would thunder through ever apartment two levels above and below you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "layer up" using racks. What you're describing can be done outside of racks and then you don't have to worry about PDC issues. That said, I've ALSO used racks, but the 'layering up' that I do involves dividing into 3 signal chains, each with its own distinctive sound, including a fairly clean/dry one, which then gets blended back into the distorted signal.
Even a 1-Watt amp (yup, they make them, and a half-watt amp, too!) will easily shake the floor and windows of an apartment when cranked.An AC15 would thunder through ever apartment two levels above and below you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "layer up" using racks. What you're describing can be done outside of racks and then you don't have to worry about PDC issues. That said, I've ALSO used racks, but the 'layering up' that I do involves dividing into 3 signal chains, each with its own distinctive sound, including a fairly clean/dry one, which then gets blended back into the distorted signal.
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- KVRist
- 230 posts since 25 Nov, 2004
The benefits of a good amp sim are outweighed (at least for me) by the touch-sensitivity of my Fender. I just haven't heard anything that can go from singing distortion to mild grit depending on how it's played. I think this is the "magic" of tube amps: dynamics. Apparently, it's very difficult to achieve without tubes.
However, the PodXT has some very usable sounds, and I have heard recordings using it that are very hard to distinguish from a good tube amp. It depends on your style as well; if I were playing nu metal, the Pod would be fine, in fact it does the rectifier sound very well. I guess growing up listening to guys playing tube amps has jaded me a bit towards that sound, YMMV.
However, the PodXT has some very usable sounds, and I have heard recordings using it that are very hard to distinguish from a good tube amp. It depends on your style as well; if I were playing nu metal, the Pod would be fine, in fact it does the rectifier sound very well. I guess growing up listening to guys playing tube amps has jaded me a bit towards that sound, YMMV.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
There are responsive sims, too. There's no particular magic to it, IMO. I'll give that there's still a ways to go to get that exact same level of responsiveness, but it's not something that 'needs' tubes to be achieved. It's all signal processing and can all be simulated. It just hasn't been done in an astonishing way just yet.
It's not too often I need that in a sim anyhow, though. I'm recording parts for a song, and I have non-realtime control over such things. A part needs more distortion, I just automate the distortion knob. I need it cleaner, I dial in a cleaner tone. I need to have that 'blend' from one to the next I either automate that or cross-fade.
Live performance is another issue altogether, but I'm not thinking of using a sim to gig with.
Greg
It's not too often I need that in a sim anyhow, though. I'm recording parts for a song, and I have non-realtime control over such things. A part needs more distortion, I just automate the distortion knob. I need it cleaner, I dial in a cleaner tone. I need to have that 'blend' from one to the next I either automate that or cross-fade.
Live performance is another issue altogether, but I'm not thinking of using a sim to gig with.
Greg