KVR Audio

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:58 am

sexy.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:24 am

Chibs' Bath Toy wrote:sexy.

thanx

I never thought you noticed

Midiworks · Post by **Midiworks** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:10 am

http://www.soundspectral.com/DualPlex.mp3

After 0:42 sound changes.

Amberience · Post by **Amberience** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:11 am

Hink wrote:
Chibs' Bath Toy wrote:sexy.
thanx I never thought you noticed

hahaha.

heeb · Post by **heeb** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 2:38 pm

championrabbit wrote:Some things are just impossible to emulate in the digital world. You might want to think of it as the 'magic' of classic equipment...

I think that it can be mathematically proven that this is not correct! If you think of two chains of equipement:

A) guitar -> pedal -> amp -> mic -> A/D convertor -> audio file (e.g., .wav)

and

B) guitar -> D/I box -> A/D convertor -> simulation software -> audio file (e.g., .wav)

than there is *no* reason to assume that the output of both chains, in the form of binary data, can't be exactly the same (i.e. same 0's and 1's), if the "simulation software" is clever enough!

And if two audio files have the same 0's and 1's, they sound exactly the same.

If you still think that you would be able to hear a difference, even though the 0's and 1's would be the exact same, then you lack basic understanding of what recording is and how it works.

There is not some "magic" property in some equipement that will at the same time *not* show up in the binary data, but still be audible.

It's just a matter of getting all 0's and 1's right!

cheul · Post by **cheul** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:45 pm

Ok I had a try at the demo, had a tough time fiddling with EQs, because well you know... I couldn't find the tone knobs

However I recorded this tiny riff, just to test the PMs, not half as cool as the other demos by Dimitar and Vervil I know, then tone comes in 3 flavors (different low-ends) :
http://killbenonline.free.fr/Toxicity2.mp3
http://killbenonline.free.fr/Toxicity3.mp3
http://killbenonline.free.fr/Toxicity4.mp3

Ok don't kill me

, I'm no pro as you figured

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:48 pm

heeb, championrabbit was just being funny. The combination he mentioned isn't exactly 'magical' even using the real-world hardware versions.

egbert · Post by **egbert** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:56 pm

heeb wrote:It's just a matter of getting all 0's and 1's right!

The chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain exactly by digital emulation is infinitessimal.

Audio emulation in software will not come within a bull's roar of being bit perfect. In any practical situation, there will be differences and they will - at the current state of the art - probably be audible differences too. The state of the art will no doubt advance so that emulation is more than adequate for practical purposes but bit perfect? The idea is statistically nonsensical.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:11 pm

I think you overestimate the magic of it all, egbert. It's less a matter of whether it's possible, and more a matter of, who has invested enough time and research into it. There aren't research grants being offered for emulating amplifiers, so companies are paying for it themselves. They can't pay mathematicians and physicists THAT much money without getting a product out.

I'd wager that with the right resources (ie. salaries for specialists, and a longer deadline) you could get it done with existing technology.

What you're talking about is a red herring, though. It could just as easily be said,

"You can't copy my personal tone with your Dual Rectifier because YOUR Dual Rectifier has different tubes, wires, diodes, and so forth. It's statistically nonsensical for you to think that your identical amp will ever produce a truly identical sound."

That statement is absolutely true. But that doesn't stop it from being bollocks.

The fact that no Marshall sounds exactly like Eddie Van Halen's Marshall didn't stop him from using different Marshalls or even helping Peavey to design an amp for him. It's irrelevant that no other amp will ever sound identical to that one.

Greg

Mutant · Post by **Mutant** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:17 pm

egbert wrote: The chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain exactly by digital emulation is infinitessimal.

Audio emulation in software will not come within a bull's roar of being bit perfect. In any practical situation, there will be differences and they will - at the current state of the art - probably be audible differences too. The state of the art will no doubt advance so that emulation is more than adequate for practical purposes but bit perfect? The idea is statistically nonsensical.

=

The problem of flight with a machine which weighs more than air can not be solved and it is a only a dream.

TonyC · Post by **TonyC** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:00 pm

Midiworks, your amp sim are soo close to a miked real amp you have to be a guitarist to hear and appreciate that. I can't spot the difference. When I heard you first GuessAmp.mp3 I immediately thoght - Boogie! And the DualPlex sounds fantastic!!!

heeb · Post by **heeb** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:42 pm

egbert wrote:
heeb wrote:It's just a matter of getting all 0's and 1's right!
The chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain exactly by digital emulation is infinitessimal.

However, the chance of replicating a digital recording of an analog signal chain with inaudible differences by digital emulation is very much non-zero. My prediction is, that considering the current rate of progress in dsp, in 10 years or less, a simulated "tube"-amp will sound actually *better* than any real life tube amp. Time and time again, it has been proven that it is possible to build tube amps that sound better than any previously existing models (Mesa Boogie, Soldano, Trainwreck, etc...). And: it is already totally possible to build a *transistor* amp that rivals and surpasses any tube amp out there: http://www.bluetoneamps.com

So why would this not be possible with digital technology? There's no *mathematical* reason to think so.

egbert wrote:Audio emulation in software will not come within a bull's roar of being bit perfect. In any practical situation, there will be differences and they will - at the current state of the art - probably be audible differences too.

The "audibility" will disappear eventually.

egbert wrote:The state of the art will no doubt advance so that emulation is more than adequate for practical purposes but bit perfect? The idea is statistically nonsensical.

I was just trying to say that it is non-sense to state that there is some "magic" in old equipment that could never be captured in digital technology. Anything that can be captured on CD, can be simulated eventually!

TonyC · Post by **TonyC** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:44 pm

Anything that can be captured on CD, can be simulated eventually!

It's not a matter of it being digital. It's a matter of being able to emulate or mimic a very complex process which obey the laws of physics. That's a whole different science.

But I agree, we'll get there, and beyond, sooner or later.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:55 pm

if you ask me the difference between digital sound/emulation and analog/real amps has nothing to do with what is present in the sound...it's what is not there that makes the biggest audible difference imo...

Guitarjeff · Post by **Guitarjeff** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:04 pm

Midiworks wrote:You are right Vervil.

But I also wanted to give you a unique amp flavor,
for Christmas.

OK, I guess I failed...
It was my new DualRectifire model.
I really thought I had it right.

Try to guess this please:
http://www.soundspectral.com/guess_amp2.mp3

I'm not sure if the Dual rectifire sounded like the real thing, but it sounds great nontheless. You seem to be really on the right track here with making it sound like a real amp and cab.

I'm sad that I missed the freebie on Christmas, but I'll definitely demo your plug when it is finished.

Jeff

Guitar players, The soundclick MP3 demo page got updated !