Hi all! It's been a while since I posted here (which means that Tracktion has been a good boy). However I have one issue that I'd like to bring up to see if you have a solution.
I have recorded some drums and I found that I didn't like the sound of the kick so I wanted to do some trigging with Drumagog. This works fine. However, I'd like to get the MIDI output from Drumagog onto another track so that I can edit and adjust it a bit more.
I thought that using a MIDI loopback would solve the problem, but no. If I select a MIDI output on my kick track then Tracktion won't play any audio clips, which means that Drumagog won't get any input.
This is a design flaw IMO. The audio should be played as long as there are any plugins in the chain accepting audio input. It shouldn't depend on the track output.
But I guess whining won't solve the problem in the near future. So I'd like to ask if anyone has a solution to this? How will I go about routing the MIDI output of Drumagog (or any other VST for that matter) to another track or another application for that matter? Is there any VST plugs that will allow me to route the midi input to another MIDI-device?
Thanks for your time.
Routing VST MIDI output to another track
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- KVRist
- 474 posts since 1 May, 2005 from Sweden
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
So you want to record the MIDI notes that Drumagog produces? I haven't used it myself, but DOES it produce MIDI?
If you're saying what I think you're saying, I agree that it'd be useful. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a "flaw" since everything's still doing what it says it should do; however, I can see it being a useful new feature. I've been asking for track output to be routed to a virtual "device" for further recording already, and though I've been thinking primarily of audio, I can see how it would be cool for MIDI also.
There's a workaround, but I can't remember how to do it. A similar topic came up once, related to Wheel of Fortune... and also for recording the MIDI produced with Mkey, back in the day. It involved MIDI Yoke and Jaltoh's Thalamus, but I can't remember the exact procedure.
Regardless of whether you call it a "flaw" or a "useful improvement", having it native would certainly be preferable to a workaround.
Greg
If you're saying what I think you're saying, I agree that it'd be useful. I wouldn't say it's necessarily a "flaw" since everything's still doing what it says it should do; however, I can see it being a useful new feature. I've been asking for track output to be routed to a virtual "device" for further recording already, and though I've been thinking primarily of audio, I can see how it would be cool for MIDI also.
There's a workaround, but I can't remember how to do it. A similar topic came up once, related to Wheel of Fortune... and also for recording the MIDI produced with Mkey, back in the day. It involved MIDI Yoke and Jaltoh's Thalamus, but I can't remember the exact procedure.
Regardless of whether you call it a "flaw" or a "useful improvement", having it native would certainly be preferable to a workaround.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Create a new rack and connect its MIDI input directly to its MIDI output. Now drag one of these rack filters onto your kick track (post Drumagog), and turn the dry level up. Drag another one onto a fresh track, and route this track to your MIDI output. Hopefully the loopback thing will now work.. or you could export a MIDI file and re-import.rainydays wrote: I thought that using a MIDI loopback would solve the problem, but no. If I select a MIDI output on my kick track then Tracktion won't play any audio clips, which means that Drumagog won't get any input.
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- KVRAF
- 8150 posts since 13 Jan, 2003 from Darkest Kent, UK
I was going to suggest what IIRs said, I know this midi-rack trick works fine if you want to route midi to different tracks for layering synths etc. I'm not sure about recording the generated midi though which is what you need to do if you want to edit it... Exporting a midi file as IIRs suggests maybe the best way forward.
.g
.g
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
If I'm not mistaken, the problem is that Drumagog doesn't 'export' its MIDI, it just allows you to pass MIDI to a virtual sound module. Of course, I could be wrong, since as I mentioned I don't really know Drumagog. Don't have time to look it up. 
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
If it outputs MIDI, it outputs MIDI.. no? (I don't really know Drumagog either!)
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
If it outputs MIDI, though, there's no way to record it for later editing. Right? That used to be the case, at least. I might be behind the times.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Unless you use a loopback, or export and re-import.Lunch Money wrote:If it outputs MIDI, though, there's no way to record it for later editing. Right?
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I guess if you record the 'unprocessed' MIDI as it's being played and then export with the option selected to allow filters to change the exported MIDI file, you might be able to do it that way... true enough, true enough... on the other hand, I'm still not 100% sure I'm understanding what he wants to do. I might be not getting it. Further explanation required, I think.
Greg
Greg
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 474 posts since 1 May, 2005 from Sweden
Thanks to both Greg and IIRs for your replies!
Thalamus was exactly what I was looking for. And it works pretty well.
I had some thoughts about using racks for this but I wasn't sure how to do it. Good to know that it's possible. However, the result wasn't that pleasing. I may have done it the wrong way, but what I got was several midi notes (with some slight delay between them) where there should have been only one. Seems almost like it's looping. Any ideas?
Both solutions had two problems in common though. There was a rather large latency, which was expected and is easily fixed by dragging the midi-clip in line with the audio clip.
But a more serious issue was the sync problems, or should I say the lack of syncing. Some of the notes are delayed, which takes a lot of time to fix. But I will try tweaking it a bit to see if I can get better results.
I wish drumagog had an option to analyze and render a wave-file to MIDI allowing it to be much more accurate. Is there any other (fairly cheap) software that does this?
Anyway, thanks to you both for those tips! They are invaluable.
Thalamus was exactly what I was looking for. And it works pretty well.
I had some thoughts about using racks for this but I wasn't sure how to do it. Good to know that it's possible. However, the result wasn't that pleasing. I may have done it the wrong way, but what I got was several midi notes (with some slight delay between them) where there should have been only one. Seems almost like it's looping. Any ideas?
Both solutions had two problems in common though. There was a rather large latency, which was expected and is easily fixed by dragging the midi-clip in line with the audio clip.
But a more serious issue was the sync problems, or should I say the lack of syncing. Some of the notes are delayed, which takes a lot of time to fix. But I will try tweaking it a bit to see if I can get better results.
I wish drumagog had an option to analyze and render a wave-file to MIDI allowing it to be much more accurate. Is there any other (fairly cheap) software that does this?
Anyway, thanks to you both for those tips! They are invaluable.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 474 posts since 1 May, 2005 from Sweden
Exporting to MIDI doesn't work by the way, because Tracker needs to have MIDI-clips in the track before it's able to export any MIDI.
And yes, I do think this is a design flaw. I'm not saying Tracktion doesn't work as advertised but that it could been designed with more logic in this area.
If I for example connect a CD-player to an amp, and the amp to a pair of speakers, the CD-player won't suddenly stop playing just because I unplug the speakers, the audio signal is still going to the amp, even though it stops there. In the Tracktion world however, the CD-player would stop playing if I unplug the speakers. And I think that's illogical and somewhat unuseful because it makes the application less featureful by not doing something that could easily be done.
I understand why it's being done though and it's noting technically wrong with the way it works. It could just allow more freedom.
And yes, I do think this is a design flaw. I'm not saying Tracktion doesn't work as advertised but that it could been designed with more logic in this area.
If I for example connect a CD-player to an amp, and the amp to a pair of speakers, the CD-player won't suddenly stop playing just because I unplug the speakers, the audio signal is still going to the amp, even though it stops there. In the Tracktion world however, the CD-player would stop playing if I unplug the speakers. And I think that's illogical and somewhat unuseful because it makes the application less featureful by not doing something that could easily be done.
I understand why it's being done though and it's noting technically wrong with the way it works. It could just allow more freedom.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
I think "design flaw" is possibly a little unfair. I suspect the audio stops in order to conserve CPU (ie: a feature not a flaw!) and the problem is that you are trying to do something fairly obscure* that was not anticipated..
* no offense.. but if you have a drum part that sounds so bad you need to replace it with samples, and is so out of time you need to convert it to MIDI and quantise.. why not just program the part as MIDI to start with?
* no offense.. but if you have a drum part that sounds so bad you need to replace it with samples, and is so out of time you need to convert it to MIDI and quantise.. why not just program the part as MIDI to start with?
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 474 posts since 1 May, 2005 from Sweden
Yes, that's what I suspect as well. As I said, I understand why it's done, but I just don't consider it such a great feature. (there is a mute button)IIRs wrote:I think "design flaw" is possibly a little unfair. I suspect the audio stops in order to conserve CPU
It should at least be optional IMO. If something can be more flexible without hurting the simplicity, then why not? It's about the freedom to be creative.
Now I never said that I was going to quantise it, that would make it completely out of syncIIRs wrote:* no offense.. but if you have a drum part that sounds so bad you need to replace it with samples, and is so out of time you need to convert it to MIDI and quantise.. why not just program the part as MIDI to start with?
I just wanted to edit it slightly.-
- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Do ANY hosts allow you to do what you'd like to do?
Personally, here's what *I* would do:
Use Tracktion's inline capabilities to overlap an empty MIDI clip onto the audio clip. Use playback and scrubbing to identify the transients that correspond to the elements (kick, right?) that you want to replace and program the MIDI note. It might take a BIT of time, but not that much more than fixing MIDI clips that seem to be coming out slightly inaccurrately. Might as well just do it by hand right from the get-go.
Cool that you at least got it 'sort of' working so far, though!
My useful deed for the day is taken care of; now I can be a slack bugger for the rest of it.
Personally, here's what *I* would do:
Use Tracktion's inline capabilities to overlap an empty MIDI clip onto the audio clip. Use playback and scrubbing to identify the transients that correspond to the elements (kick, right?) that you want to replace and program the MIDI note. It might take a BIT of time, but not that much more than fixing MIDI clips that seem to be coming out slightly inaccurrately. Might as well just do it by hand right from the get-go.
Cool that you at least got it 'sort of' working so far, though!
My useful deed for the day is taken care of; now I can be a slack bugger for the rest of it.-
- KVRAF
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
That's true, but have you tried putting a blank midi clip on the track, and then exporting? In the back of my feeble brain I seem to remember this working for Groove Agent, which similarly can output midi, although I could be mistaken. It was a while back ....rainydays wrote:Exporting to MIDI doesn't work by the way, because Tracker needs to have MIDI-clips in the track before it's able to export any MIDI.
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"