New x86-based Macs are out!

[egbert]

Windows Vista on a MAC? Why would you want to do that?Zai

These latest Macs might struggle to run Vista - Vista is 64 bit and the Intel Duo Core (Yonah) chips just released and used in the new macs are not. Next version is Merom (due in Sept) and they will be 64 bit plus they will support virtualisation - Intels Vanderpool or whatever the f&^k they call it. This means you can run more than one OS simultaneously. Could be interesting.

[zai]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

[egbert]

See my paste of an article about this two pages back in this thread:

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=45

[machinesworking]

I very much doubt whether Apple designed this mobo. I would be astonished if they are not doing what HP and Dell etc do and buying one of the major Taiwanese manufacturers designs based on the new i945 chipset from Intel (which probably draws heavily on some Intel reference design) and specing their own 802.11g chip instead of Intel's. The routing of all the tracks etc - ie the design - will be done in software by the people that actually know how to do that shit - the engineers at the Taiwanese manufacturer Apple has contracted to build the machines.

Just to chime in here. A friend of mine works for Apple in hardware, and Apple has always designed it's own motherboards. I would seriously doubt that they changed that with the move to Intel. For one, Intel is working probably closer with them than anybody else right now, it seems they are pretty happy to have an OS manufacturer that will actually implement their ideas for speed improvements without making weird demands.
Maybe that's how PC manufacturers have done it for years, but Apple likes having control over the motherboard, period.

[ruwaldo]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

Think about what you just said. Is Apple actually going to take a step backwards with their OS to move to Intel chips? Ever think that Intel chips might already be capable of 64 bit but there was no reason for it to run that way since there was no 64 bit OS (Windows) available? Sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

[Reverse Engineer]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

Think about what you just said. Is Apple actually going to take a step backwards with their OS to move to Intel chips? Ever think that Intel chips might already be capable of 64 bit but there was no reason for it to run that way since there was no 64 bit OS (Windows) available? Sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Huh? http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx

[machinesworking]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

OSX isn't a 64 bit OS. I would wait until you have access to your applications and sound cards before buying. If I was just running my Fireface 800, and Logic, I could buy one tomorrow. Logic is so CPU efficient though, that it's the least of my worries AFA getting a new laptop. Reactor, Live 5, and GURU, those are what the Intel macs will be a blessing for.

[ruwaldo]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

Think about what you just said. Is Apple actually going to take a step backwards with their OS to move to Intel chips? Ever think that Intel chips might already be capable of 64 bit but there was no reason for it to run that way since there was no 64 bit OS (Windows) available? Sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Huh? http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx

So that version of XP has not been out that long and it also was not intended to be the final 64 bit OS, Vista is.

I work for Intel, actually in the factory where the newest chips are made. We could have had a 64 bit chip out two years ago but there was no real need for it or software base to support it.

[Reverse Engineer]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

Think about what you just said. Is Apple actually going to take a step backwards with their OS to move to Intel chips? Ever think that Intel chips might already be capable of 64 bit but there was no reason for it to run that way since there was no 64 bit OS (Windows) available? Sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Huh? http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx

So that version of XP has not been out that long and it also was not intended to be the final 64 bit OS, Vista is.

I work for Intel, actually in the factory where the newest chips are made. We could have had a 64 bit chip out two years ago but there was no real need for it or software base to support it.

Intel already have 64bit chips out http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1 ... 753,00.asp they have had since feb/march last year.

[ruwaldo]

Yes we have had a 64 bit chip for awhile, in very limited numbers. It was a reaction to the release of AMDs 64 bit chip. If you look some more I'm sure it would not be too hard to find quotes from Intel execs at the time of that chips release saying that it is still too early to go with a full roll out of 64 bit CPUs.

[egbert]

Yonah is NOT 64-bit? Hm...but OSX is...interesting! I was going to buy the MacBook Pro...but now...hm...something to think about!

Zai

Think about what you just said. Is Apple actually going to take a step backwards with their OS to move to Intel chips? Ever think that Intel chips might already be capable of 64 bit but there was no reason for it to run that way since there was no 64 bit OS (Windows) available? Sometimes things are not always what they seem to be.

Read that article I posted on p4 of this thread. It says explicitly that the silicon for compliance with AMD 86-64 was not put into Yonah to save power and heat. These particular chips were designed in Israel not the USA and will not support 64 bit instuctions and the extra registers etc. They are not P4 derivatives.

[egbert]

I very much doubt whether Apple designed this mobo. I would be astonished if they are not doing what HP and Dell etc do and buying one of the major Taiwanese manufacturers designs based on the new i945 chipset from Intel (which probably draws heavily on some Intel reference design) and specing their own 802.11g chip instead of Intel's. The routing of all the tracks etc - ie the design - will be done in software by the people that actually know how to do that shit - the engineers at the Taiwanese manufacturer Apple has contracted to build the machines.

Just to chime in here. A friend of mine works for Apple in hardware, and Apple has always designed it's own motherboards. I would seriously doubt that they changed that with the move to Intel. For one, Intel is working probably closer with them than anybody else right now, it seems they are pretty happy to have an OS manufacturer that will actually implement their ideas for speed improvements without making weird demands.
Maybe that's how PC manufacturers have done it for years, but Apple likes having control over the motherboard, period.

Ask your friend.

X86 is a whole new ballgame and Intel don't need M$ or Apple to design their chipsets or reference boards - quite the reverse. The hardware design - designing mobo trace layouts etc so you don't get crosstalk screwing the bus signals - that sort of design is years in development - the culmination of a process of continual development over decades. This basic system engineering is done by the people who design and build the chipset from the ground up and then tune it up for maximum performance. The design is a system of inter-communicating parts - the sockets for RAM, CPU, expansion and the north and south bridge chips and all the buses and interconnects which run between them. I would bet most of this nuts and bolts stuff was done before Apple even negoitiated a deal with Intel.

And if a Tainwanese company is going to build boards for Apple and cope with the cost overruns involved in any bad design decisions (which resulted in poor yields or necessitated revisions) -- they will obviously have input too. Precise locations of i/o ports to match a case, which peripherals and how many of each will be integrated - I am sure Apple would be in a position to spec that - as are Dell and HP. Dell boards are non standard - if you want to rip out the mobo and upgrade your Dell desktop at some stage your are SOL.

[Reverse Engineer]

I very much doubt whether Apple designed this mobo. I would be astonished if they are not doing what HP and Dell etc do and buying one of the major Taiwanese manufacturers designs based on the new i945 chipset from Intel (which probably draws heavily on some Intel reference design) and specing their own 802.11g chip instead of Intel's. The routing of all the tracks etc - ie the design - will be done in software by the people that actually know how to do that shit - the engineers at the Taiwanese manufacturer Apple has contracted to build the machines.

Just to chime in here. A friend of mine works for Apple in hardware, and Apple has always designed it's own motherboards. I would seriously doubt that they changed that with the move to Intel. For one, Intel is working probably closer with them than anybody else right now, it seems they are pretty happy to have an OS manufacturer that will actually implement their ideas for speed improvements without making weird demands.
Maybe that's how PC manufacturers have done it for years, but Apple likes having control over the motherboard, period.

Ask your friend.

X86 is a whole new ballgame and Intel don't need M$ or Apple to design their chipsets or reference boards - quite the reverse. The hardware design - designing mobo trace layouts etc so you don't get crosstalk screwing the bus signals - that sort of design is years in development - the culmination of a process of continual development over decades. This basic system engineering is done by the people who design and build the chipset from the ground up and then tune it up for maximum performance. The design is a system of inter-communicating parts - the sockets for RAM, CPU, expansion and the north and south bridge chips and all the buses and interconnects which run between them. I would bet most of this nuts and bolts stuff was done before Apple even negoitiated a deal with Intel.

And if a Tainwanese company is going to build boards for Apple and cope with the cost overruns involved in any bad design decisions (which resulted in poor yields or necessitated revisions) -- they will obviously have input too. Precise locations of i/o ports to match a case, which peripherals and how many of each will be integrated - I am sure Apple would be in a position to spec that - as are Dell and HP. Dell boards are non standard - if you want to rip out the mobo and upgrade your Dell desktop at some stage your are SOL.

That’s the problem with my Dell, the lack of standardisation, lessening the ability to upgrade (and removing altogether the ability to overclock.) It's still a chipper wee monkey though, and the only place it really lets me down is games but tbh, I think my 32mb mx400 has a bigger part to play in that than anything else

It is just under 5yrs old now, so even having to replace it altogether isn't an issue. It done its job, it's STILL doing it even, but I don't think Dell will be the route I take next time. Not because of any bad experience, just because I know a little more about comps etc than I did then they just don't offer me the flexibility I will need in the future. Plus I’m def going the AMD route (although the rumours persist that Dell will too, and undoubtedly they will at some point, I still need the flexibility anyway.)

[machinesworking]

Ask your friend.

X86 is a whole new ballgame and Intel don't need M$ or A¢ to design their chipsets or reference boards

[Trying to start a fair jab at Apple here with the A¢..... if we are to call M$, then why not paint Apple out as what they are, the nickel and dime version. ]

What you say is true, but like you say about Dell, same applies with A¢, they will want to design large portions of the mobo to fit their needs, and that includes the hardware that tells the OS that the mobo is indeed an A¢/Intel designed board. Plus, from what Intel stated publicly, they are working with A¢ on new hyperthreading/SSE/Altivec type ideas in a way that they can't do with M$. That sort of thing implies to me that A¢ will have a larger say in mobo design than the PC hardware manufacturers.
Not at all saying that Intel and partners won't have a say in all this, but the insinuation was that it would somehow be cheap for A¢ to get the mobo, and that we the consumers were being shafted. Sure A¢ charges a lot for their computers, but from what I know, they pay a lot for them as well. The PPC motherboards were really expensive on their end, and Intel charges a lot for their chips, so I can't imagine they get that great of a price break on custom motherboards, and constant design modifications etc.
I will ask him how deep A¢ is going into motherboard design, I don't think that's classified under NDA info, it would just take us hours to research as opposed to a simple phone call.
Honestly though, he's a bit of a soldier at war, so the way I find out if A¢ isn't in control, or are gouging consumers, is by how defensive he gets!

[ericj23]

i find it funny that some people are big upping mac for producing these intel laptops so we can all dual boot

look at the advert page and they trumpet a 4 times increase in power - so what that means is that the old power pc laptop was about half as powerful as the intel laptops of the time

this not a bit of amazing strategy - this ispure expediancy

if they had not done this they would have being selling comedy laptops that looked nice but........

thanks anyway guys - think ii'll still buy a killer desktop at a fraction of the price