New x86-based Macs are out!

[egbert]

Another point, these guys have egos, and I think IBM sealed their fate when they promised a dual 3Ghz machine years ago, and had Jobs flatly stating that Apple would deliver one the following year, ouch!

I would not be surprised if IBM never said anything of the sort - perhaps they just made general projections of their future hopes in the same way Intel expected to ramp the p4 up to 10 GHz.

That statement was typical Jobs marketing bombast and it was on the occasion of the launch of the G5 "64 bit supercomputer". He wanted to put it across as a platform with a future that would - of course - blow everything else away

It was ever thus - he used to tell the press that when he was at Next.

[machinesworking]

I would not be surprised if IBM never said anything of the sort - perhaps they just made general projections of their future hopes in the same way Intel expected to ramp the p4 up to 10 GHz.

That statement was typical Jobs marketing bombast

True enough, but we really don't know whether IBM told him or not, and the general consensus I got from my friend who works at Apple was that he was in fact told that it was going to happen. It could have been bombast, and it could have been a promise, that seemed easy at the time to IBM, but turned out not to be. Somehow I doubt the bombast thing though, solid numbers are a lot different than "This will blow everything else away!"
My feelings on this are that it's pretty obvious that Apple rode the PPC as long and hard as they could, there are advantages to the chip design, but the fact is Intel and AMD are just better at pushing the speed/price envelope than Motorola or IBM, it's their primary objective, and the other chip manufactures aren't as invested in it.

[egbert]

My feelings on this are that it's pretty obvious that Apple rode the PPC as long and hard as they could, there are advantages to the chip design, but the fact is Intel and AMD are just better at pushing the speed/price envelope than Motorola or IBM, it's their primary objective, and the other chip manufactures aren't as invested in it.

It is not just them - the development budget of all the x86 players is enormous and it creates a climate of fierce competition. Intel and AMD have also absorbed their competitors - DECs Alpha stuff has made it into Intel and AMD systems. Transmeta led the way with low power - gave Intel the hurry up to do something on that front and now the ideas of the Israeli design team that did that project are more or less supplanting those of the US teams that brought you the P4 and its successors. Nextgen was bought out by AMD and their advanced ideas were used to build the K6, the Athlon K7 and its successors. Before the K6 AMD were also rans.

[machinesworking]

One thing it will really help out with IMO, is the misunderstandings about altivec that mac users have. I got curious and actually bothered to look at how apps were benefiting from it, and how much of a gain it gave etc. Mostly around 20% , and usually with things like rendering and single tasks like reverb tails. People are constantly referring to poor CPU performance with things like Reactor as due to not being 'optimized for macs', never bothering to notice that Reactor recognizes and utilizes altivec and dual CPUs.... or that their machine is a dual Gig G4 (basically 1.6 Ghz) as compared to a single 2.4 P4 their friend has.....

[egbert]

One thing it will really help out with IMO, is the misunderstandings about altivec that mac users have. I got curious and actually bothered to look at how apps were benefiting from it, and how much of a gain it gave etc. Mostly around 20% , and usually with things like rendering and single tasks like reverb tails. People are constantly referring to poor CPU performance with things like Reactor as due to not being 'optimized for macs', never bothering to notice that Reactor recognizes and utilizes altivec and dual CPUs.... or that their machine is a dual Gig G4 (basically 1.6 Ghz) as compared to a single 2.4 P4 their friend has.....

That's the problem with the aura of bullshit around the Mac. It is just a machine folks! Jobs always exaggerates the performance and cooks phony comparisons as often as hot breakfasts. The Mac's band of followers are typically less clued up about technical things related to hardware and IT - partly because being disinclined towards all that stuff attracted to the Mac in the first place and partly because of the dearth of decent info on the Mac hardware and the blizzard of disinformation from Jobs et al.

Many years ago I read an article somewhere (by an American) which said that the American advertising culture was one of telling lies which nobody believed. The author cited the instant coffee adverts of the era which tried to tell you that Maxwell House or Nescafe were the best coffee. Anyone who knew anything knew that the Italians made espresso coffee that made instant coffee taste like dishwater. Same with the auto industry: the big US motor corps ran ads for their underengineered overweight tanks which trumpetted them as the pinnacle of automotive creation and yet anyone who had a clue or wanted status bought a foreign car. This disconnect between the corporate message and the widely understood truth is part of the culture - a company that doesn't tell you its product is "the best" apparently doesn't want your business in the USA. In other cultures people don't pretend a Hyundai is better than a Rolls Royce - they are prepared to face the fact that the former is more affordable and is a sensible purchase for a suburban runabout.

OK - roll on Steve Jobs - he just does what any redblooded American (or as redblooded as you can get on a Vegan diet of grass clippings) CEO would do and tells you that his product is fabulous and it can cure your asthma too and ... some people actually believe it! Obviously they should all take a leaf out of Frank Zappa's book, form a mass chorus and sing: Hey there brother/who're you jivin' with that cosmic debris/I can chew more plugins with my AMD/So don't you waste your time on me
(Oops I forgot) ... Shanti

[AD80]

[Reverse Engineer]

Thanks to whomever posted the link to appleinsider. I've been going through the forums there and they argue amongst themselves about the most pathetic stuff. I've found my second home for comedy (here being the first of course )

[egbert]

Thanks to whomever posted the link to appleinsider. I've been going through the forums there and they argue amongst themselves about the most pathetic stuff. I've found my second home for comedy (here being the first of course )

aw shucks ... my pleasure, RE

[AD80]

Heres a start up comparo for the fruity crowd...

iMac G5 vs Intel

[machinesworking]

That's the problem with the aura of bullshit around the Mac. It is just a machine folks! Jobs always exaggerates the performance and cooks phony comparisons as often as hot breakfasts. The Mac's band of followers are typically less clued up about technical things related to hardware and IT - partly because being disinclined towards all that stuff attracted to the Mac in the first place and partly because of the dearth of decent info on the Mac hardware and the blizzard of disinformation from Jobs et al.

OK while I agree with you about the cult of mac, I think it's only fair that we admit that PC users tend to get a little out of hand about how worthless they think macs are etc. It's pretty silly IMO. I think it's pretty obvious that PC's are a better hardware buy, if you make the right choices in hardware that is, and OSX is a better OS than XP, but this is where the PC side gets all defensive and acts like that's simply not true. You yourself pointed out the obvious security problems PC's have, and though it's rare I still hear stories about the OS itself being corrupted etc. The amount of time people try to claim that the only reason macs don't have viruses is because of PC dominance.... give me a break? the amount of people you talk to that have serious issues with macs, ( for some goddamn reason, I don't know? ) would lead me to believe that if it were as easy to break into as PC, then they would, period.
Though I totally relate to the annoyance people get about mac brand name loyalty etc. as a mac user, it's pretty rare when a thread about anything mac related doesn't end up turning into a "macs are lame, PC's rule" KVR PC dominated forum f**k fest.
Egbert, you mostly discuss these things from the standpoint of logic, which I appreciate, but the whole USA comparison is just silly. Remember where both Microsoft and Apple reside, this isn't necessarily a stupid country, just because there are stupid things about it.
You could arguer that the instant coffee thing applies to PC users as well, In some ways if what you're looking for is caffeine, then espresso is not as good, and instant coffee is cheaper. Sure, it's probably not as good for you, and definitely not as good tasting, but once you get used to a five teaspoonful cup of instant mud with tons of sugar, your taste buds will acquire a taste for it, and you will see the corner espresso stand with it's cute barista as a waste of money.

Anyway if they let OSX run on a roll your own PC, then the arguments will be moot IMO, best computer concept with a better OS.

[egbert]

Egbert, you mostly discuss these things from the standpoint of logic, which I appreciate, but the whole USA comparison is just silly. Remember where both Microsoft and Apple reside, this isn't necessarily a stupid country, just because there are stupid things about it.

Hi MW - read what I wrote in that second para again.

I said the advertising culture was one of telling lies that nobody believed. I don't for a minute suggest that American consumers are credulous dolts (just American voters)

The usual scepticism of people who might generally be savvy consumers gets suspended in some areas it seems.

[Reverse Engineer]

Heres a start up comparo for the fruity crowd...

iMac G5 vs Intel

My "crappy" dell inspiron 500m with it's 1.3ghz pentium M REboots faster than both of those. From pressing restart to windows being fully loaded takes half the time that intel Mac did. And remember, that's including shutting down too. From being powered off, it takes about 10 seconds.

[machinesworking]

I don't for a minute suggest that American consumers are credulous dolts (just American voters)

The usual scepticism of people who might generally be savvy consumers gets suspended in some areas it seems.

Can't disagree with that!

I'm not sure about suspended, as much as sold a bill of goods. Though I seriously don't see how that's different in other european based countries. In Berlin the first place I walked into after getting off the underground rail for directions to the hostel was a Starbucks...

Voting wise, yeah, we suck, whoever seems more predatory seems to have a better chance.

[machinesworking]

windows being fully loaded takes half the time that intel Mac did. And remember, that's including shutting down too. From being powered off, it takes about 10 seconds.

I don't really think start up time is an issue to most people. I leave mine on all the time, just put it to sleep, takes about two seconds or less to start up.

You do bring up an interesting point though. I wonder how the OS themselves will compare on exactly similar machines? This should be interesting.

[AD80]

Heres a start up comparo for the fruity crowd...

iMac G5 vs Intel

My "crappy" dell inspiron 500m with it's 1.3ghz pentium M REboots faster than both of those. From pressing restart to windows being fully loaded takes half the time that intel Mac did. And remember, that's including shutting down too. From being powered off, it takes about 10 seconds.

Impossible!

According to the giant billboard I saw in San Francisco yesterday "What's an Intel chip doing in a Mac? A whole lot more than it's ever done in a PC"

So I'm assuming to do a "whole lot more" than PC's you obviously have to get started very fast. Therefore its scientifically impossible that your PC can start up faster than any of the new macs.

I really need to get one of those new iMacs. I just havent been doing enough cuz I'm being held back by my PC apparently. I didnt realize that until I saw the billboard tho.