Live 5....what happened?

[eidenk]

I was actually thinking of buying Live 5. I have Live 4 Lite. But it takes ages to load (probably testing each time it starts the initialisation of all plugs present in the VST folder), is not integrated with Windows Explorer for anything (can't drag and drop anything from Explorer onto Live), does regularly freezes when saving a project, the only soft I have who does this. And it's a mega pain in the ass IMO to access the VST GUIs or change VST presets on the fly. Also I can't seem to be able to save/load individual VST presets but only banks. This plus what I read here and there about Live 5 probably makes I will not buy it despite the fact I love the arrangement view, the automation and the recording capability from session to arrangement.

If by reading this you know what would be the perfect host for me, please tell.

[dougsyo]

If Live5 looks troublesome, you might check out the demo for Project5 V2.

Doug

[kovacs]

I was actually thinking of buying Live 5. I have Live 4 Lite. But it takes ages to load (probably testing each time it starts the initialisation of all plugs present in the VST folder),

This can be turned on or off in the settings.

is not integrated with Windows Explorer for anything (can't drag and drop anything from Explorer onto Live)

This is still the case in 5 I think, although you can drag and drop grooves from (for example) Fxpansion GURU.

does regularly freezes when saving a project, the only soft I have who does this.

I have never had this problem, neither with 4 nor with 5.

And it's a mega pain in the ass IMO to access the VST GUIs or change VST presets on the fly.

Admittedly, it takes three clicks unless you're in correct track view with the given VST at the bottom. One of my pet peeves with Live, but I am so used to it now.

Also I can't seem to be able to save/load individual VST presets but only banks.

No problems with loading individual VST presets here. Which VSTs are you using...maybe has been solved?

This plus what I read here and there about Live 5 probably makes I will not buy it despite the fact I love the arrangement view, the automation and the recording capability from session to arrangement.

If you love the session and arrangement views, I'd seriously consider Live 5. It's a killer app, and it is much better than Live Lite 4.

If by reading this you know what would be the perfect host for me, please tell.

I replaced FLS and Tracktion with Live so I don't have any alternatives for you. Good luck though.

[eidenk]

Never heard about Project5 before. I'll check it out. Thanks.

Thanks also kovacs for the feedback.

[Mr Arkadin]

kovacs wrote:

The Ableton forum is the most depressing place ever - I never go there unless I want to vent frustation

Just think that through for a second

[grymmjack]

I replaced FLS and Tracktion with Live so I don't have any alternatives for you. Good luck though.

Why did you move away from Tracktion? I'm considering switching /to/ it. Please be as verbose as you can. I don't want to throw money down the drain.

T2 does many things /much/ better than any other host I have tried to date, Live5 included -- and TBH the T2 UI and how it works and was developed with all vector elegance and antialiasing techniques ala JUCE gives me warm fuzzies.

It's funny I know, making the UI and the ease of use a primary factor when considering a switch, but I am a graphic designer by trade and that kind of stuff is very important to me. Live has a rocking UI as well, so awesome to see developers FINALLY getting it!

In my defense of the impending scoffing regarding UI being a primary factor, consider the mental impact of a horrible cumbersome UI and compare it to something beautifully zen-like and elegant like T2 or Live and then look at steiny and cakewalk apps (ughhhh)..

Definitely the workflow in Live is excellent for composition, experimentation and remixing, etc - no doubt about that one bit. Live and Tracktion are my favorites. And when I can afford to buy Live I will, but first I want T2 just because the way it is made, and knowing a bit about programming and such myself it is not a trivial matter to create a cross platform UI toolkit like JUCE, is just so damned awesome and impressive. So T2 gets my money before Ableton. Plus IMO Live is way overpriced! I have to eat!

So please, tell me why the switch and was it from T2 or T1? Thanks, and I beg you don't hold back.

[diverdee]

I also moved from Tracktion for various reasons - mostly bugs & missing features in the midi side of things.
TBH I love abletons workflow, the session view slots & all that, but on the other hand the new update to tracktion looks to have solved a lot of issues & T2.1 is looking like a bargain again.
I am actually considering getting a hold of the boxed version, just for mastering using the finalmix suite - as it's actually fairly cheap over here at the moment (around £109).

[deaneager]

I also moved from Tracktion for various reasons - mostly bugs & missing features in the midi side of things.
TBH I love abletons workflow, the session view slots & all that, but on the other hand the new update to tracktion looks to have solved a lot of issues & T2.1 is looking like a bargain again.
I am actually considering getting a hold of the boxed version, just for mastering using the finalmix suite - as it's actually fairly cheap over here at the moment (around £109).

And now it comes bundled with Mackie Spike, which is a bargain in itself at £149! So with a £120 software package thrown in you're effectively getting the Spike for £30!!!!!

[diverdee]

The bundled version won't include the new mackie plug in suite (as far as i'm aware) & also likely wont be upgradeable to version 3 (when it comes out).
I'd check with mackie for more info on that, but that seems to be the way things stand.
Maybe post a question in the raw material software forums, beno or one of the other mackie dudes may be forthcoming with more info.
In fac the only thing I still have an issue with pertaining to tracktion is the rather unpro way the whole upgrade debacle has been, i.e. one set of rules for U.S. users compared to non-U.S. users.
Still it's fairly cheap & is looking to be becoming quite polished now.

[deaneager]

The bundled version won't include the new mackie plug in suite (as far as i'm aware) & also likely wont be upgradeable to version 3 (when it comes out).
I'd check with mackie for more info on that, but that seems to be the way things stand.
Maybe post a question in the raw material software forums, beno or one of the other mackie dudes may be forthcoming with more info.
In fac the only thing I still have an issue with pertaining to tracktion is the rather unpro way the whole upgrade debacle has been, i.e. one set of rules for U.S. users compared to non-U.S. users.
Still it's fairly cheap & is looking to be becoming quite polished now.

http://www.mackie.com/products/spike/
There's a box-out with the details on what you do & don't get.

[headquest]

I have found Live 5 to be very stable and don't really understand the moans on the forum... which I guess is a good sign!

To put that in context though, I had major problems with Live 4. The CPU consumption - and regular spikes - made me very angry, as I remember

Live 5 is a massive improvement in so many ways, so I would certainly recommend it.

As regards the supposed issues with it, try the demo and check for yourself whether any of the problems you have read about actually affect you. That way you can hopefully go on to buy with confidence.

[headquest]

Hi Synthbuilder

No PDC for rewired inputs. So no chance of using a rewired Reason to create beats.

No working track delay function for rewired inputs.

I've seen this commented on, but still don't really understand the issue I use Reason to create beats within Ableton Live constantly. I have done so since Live 2. I continued doing so in Live 4. PDC had not been added, but nobody was complaining about using Reason as a rewire slave back then The fact is, Reason doesn't introduce a delay into the signal path... so there's nothing there to compensate for.

Certianly if I put a nice convolution reverb onto an send/return channel and fed my ReDrum into it in real time there would be an issue... but that would be a foolish thing to do anyway (any latency inducing effects shouldn't be added until the mixing stage, whatever host you are using).

[scam_artist]

If Live5 looks troublesome, you might check out the demo for Project5 V2.

Doug

i'm a host whore, i admit it. I've recently gotten into P5 V2 and I love that workflow! awesome for getting ideas down. It's also decent enough at triggering patterns with midi, not quite as good as Live5 but definitely usable

[headquest]

So please, tell me why the switch and was it from T2 or T1? Thanks, and I beg you don't hold back.

Oh boy! Well I'm another member of the ex-Tracktion club. There's a fair few of us, and that should tell you something

Some of the reasons I switched to Ableton Live as my main host are:

1. Tracktion has a bug whereby the first note in a MIDI sequence using a VSTi (or rewire instruments) sometimes gets "dropped" and lost. Although users have commented on this for more than three years the developers have not fixed it. There are "workarounds" including a freeware third-party utility that a user knocked up one weekend... but using such workarounds adds another task to the workflow. Such a workaround is not necessary in Ableton, which "works properly" (from a musician's perspective) in the first place. Much easier!

2. GUI slowdown. Not everyone seems to have this issue, so test the demo for yourself. But on my system the GUI update is so sluggish that it makes monitoring level meters impossible. I have found that GUI freezes are linked to audio dropouts when recording. I have been told this is system specific, but I don't get these issues recording in Ableton 5, Audition 2.0 or SOnar 5 PE. Only in Tracktion.

3. Rewire sync doesn't work properly. This is similar to the MIDI note-dropping I mentioned before but is in fact a seperate issue according to Mackie. And they are clearly in no hurry to fix it, because it has been repeatedly reported to them for two years.

4. Mixing Levels: In Tracktion there is no mixer view. Instead there are volume/pan "filters" at the right hand side of each track lane. These can be strangely fiddly, especially because as VST instruments and effects are added to the track, the fader literally, erm, fades... into a very thin slither!

In Live the volume, pan and other mixing functions are very obvious and intuitive. And they can be fully mapped to your controller. A much better implementation which does exactly what a musician basically needs!

5. Effects sends in Tracktion have to be manually set up by creating extra tracks, and dragging and configuring "filters" onto each channel and onto the return bus itself. In Ableton simply press Ctr+Alt+T and another effect send/return is instantly set up, including a send amount knob on every channel. So much easier and more obvious.

6. Once you have recorded and frozen a VST instrument track in Tracktion you can no longer adjust the volume/pan at all unless you unfreeze the track, which makes the freeze function of limited value. In Ableton of course you can continue to adjust the basic mix even when tracks are frozen. Naturally!

7. The timestretch in Tracktion is simply unuseable (even Tracktion's most loyal supporters will confirm this). Ableton Live has a fantastic timestretch/audio warp facility, along with obviously better looping tools.

8. The "Warp" facility in Ableton even makes it easy to manually correct timing problems in audio recordings. For example, you can get that final cymbal crash spot on in time with the last bass note... without the effort of slicing clips and lining them up. Warp markers are simply the business, and Tracktion has nothing to compete with this.

9. The development pace for Mackie Tracktion is so slow that I've seen faster moving whelchs. Bugs get ignored by the developers from one year to the next. New features are added at a snail's pace. The latest version 2.1 update is basically little more than a bugfix with a few neat extras... but comes a full year after the already disappointing version 2 update. Ableton add a ton of features and a full digit upgrade in that time.

10. Marketing and Pricing - following on from the previous point, the marketing and pricing strategy of Mackie since they have acquired Tracktion seems caculated to alienate the original userbase, and this has cuased considerable upset on their forum. Their handling of the Tracktion 2 update should be used by marketing students as an object lesson in how to pissoff customers. a faster development rate, and far better development support.

11. Ultimately though... Ableton Live 5 is simply a far superior product in terms of features. The Session View has changed my whole approach to composing and making music, and there is still nothing else like it.

I hope I didn't hold back

[munchkin]

I own Live 4 but, as good as it is, I never got used to the workflow. I've tried v5 but had problems loading plugins so didn't upgrade.

I've been using ACID 5 and am eagerly anticipating ACID 6. Not sure if it'll cover some of Live 5 features but it's a substantial upgrade in itself.

I've come to realise that workflow is more important to me than features. I didn't bother to upgrade to Sonar 5 either because it lacks something that I find in ACID.

There are so many add-on VST's/VSTi's nowdays that I don't need to find everything in one host.