It's really not obsessive scrutiny though. For example if you have inside kick and outside kick mics..in your world(at least how you are talking about 8 outs..etc) you would just throw them together in a group, filter/compress and thats your kick sound.
I would instead EQ each mic differently (example your outside kick doesn't need the highs because of bleed, but the inside does for attack) then group them in a new track and then EQ again. Little detail like this makes the kick drum stand out in a mix that has huge frequency eating guitars in it. It does make a huge difference, detail is everything in production to me. I enjoy it. Nothing like having an amazing kick/snare sound that sounds huge after being buried by guitars and compressed to shit in mastering.
That is a tiny example of what I do, and it makes a big difference, I assure you. Think of the time spent by hip hop and DNB producers to get a perfect kick sound, and it is all relative.
If you really want to appreciate Tracktion...
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Sorry, I edited my previous post on you because I wasn't sure how to phrase everything I'm thinking. I'm not sure if it came out better or worse, but I assure you that it's just lack of energy that's making me seem like an asshole. <laff> I really DO want to learn from you, but I'm going to have a very difficult time being convinced that 32 separate tracks are justified.
Regarding your example:
One thing I can easily admit is that if it's something you truly enjoy, it simply CANNOT be a waste of time. If the very act of paying all that attention is time well-spent for you, then heck, nobody's opinion in the world matters anyhow.
(there's the diplomacy sneaking back in.
)
But... didn't fxPansion already do all that work FOR us? Isn't the kick already recorded right? Can't you just replace one kick (if it's not right for the job) with another instead of all that farting around? And then EQ if need be? And then use a tool like Space Boy if things still aren't "playing well" together?
It's nice being ignorant sometimes. I don't generally recommend it (knowledge is power!) but if there's something to know about having 32 separate tracks of drum sounds from an instrument (one instrument, lousy or not) that has sometimes only 5 components, then that's information I feel better off not knowing anything about.
Greg
Regarding your example:
One thing I can easily admit is that if it's something you truly enjoy, it simply CANNOT be a waste of time. If the very act of paying all that attention is time well-spent for you, then heck, nobody's opinion in the world matters anyhow.
(there's the diplomacy sneaking back in.
)But... didn't fxPansion already do all that work FOR us? Isn't the kick already recorded right? Can't you just replace one kick (if it's not right for the job) with another instead of all that farting around? And then EQ if need be? And then use a tool like Space Boy if things still aren't "playing well" together?
It's nice being ignorant sometimes. I don't generally recommend it (knowledge is power!) but if there's something to know about having 32 separate tracks of drum sounds from an instrument (one instrument, lousy or not) that has sometimes only 5 components, then that's information I feel better off not knowing anything about.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Regarding hip-hop/DnB producers, though-- don't you think that some of them just find the right sample and use it? In mono or at best stereo?
Not all of them pay that much attention except in terms of knowing what the right sound is when they hear it. Hip-Hop in particular, has a rich history of producers/musicians who don't have the slightest clue about producing the 'perfect' kick drum, but instead either sample, mix-n-match, or stumble across these things with guerrilla-style experimentation.
There's no way that even the minority of hip-hop uses kick drums that have been crafted painstakingly with hours of work by the producer.
Soul Drummer... there's the foundation of many a hip-hop song.
808 kicks... also not finely or painstakingly crafted...
How many rock producers have just said, "Yeah, it was an awesome, organic experience. I threw him in the drum room, mic'ed up the kit with a few of my favourit mics, and 'rolled tape.'" Heck, it's a badge of honour and a matter of fashion over the past couple of years to do things this way. You can bet that they haven't outfitted the drum room with 32 microphones, or if they have it's their dirty little secret.
Greg
Not all of them pay that much attention except in terms of knowing what the right sound is when they hear it. Hip-Hop in particular, has a rich history of producers/musicians who don't have the slightest clue about producing the 'perfect' kick drum, but instead either sample, mix-n-match, or stumble across these things with guerrilla-style experimentation.
There's no way that even the minority of hip-hop uses kick drums that have been crafted painstakingly with hours of work by the producer.
Soul Drummer... there's the foundation of many a hip-hop song.
808 kicks... also not finely or painstakingly crafted...
How many rock producers have just said, "Yeah, it was an awesome, organic experience. I threw him in the drum room, mic'ed up the kit with a few of my favourit mics, and 'rolled tape.'" Heck, it's a badge of honour and a matter of fashion over the past couple of years to do things this way. You can bet that they haven't outfitted the drum room with 32 microphones, or if they have it's their dirty little secret.
Greg
Last edited by Lunch Money on Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
The Kick drum on BFD sounds great, but it is not EQd or processed in any way. It is just like a guy came in and played drums for you and now it's time to mix. You can say.."yeah this is fine" and go with it, but this is not how kicks are EQd on records. There is a lot of Eqing done, and my prior post is a very common (and shittily detailed)example of what is done to a kick to make it really sound great.
Spaceboy is a plugin that looks at frequency and shows you what is clashing right? I just don't think it's cheating, I think it is unmusical mixing. Meaning you have software looking at frequencies, but not hearing the song, being moved by it and trying to focus the energy into a cohesive sound. So to me, when you use a spectrum to mix you are trusting software instead of your ears. The software can not feel the music like you can and therefore will not really discern between what frequency clashes are musical and which are just noise.
Good ears, and some pale skinned studio experience (which makes good ears) will do that. Example..If you put a bass and a kick through spaceboy, it may take out some of the very frequencies in the bass that were giving the beat energy. Technically, they were clashing, but it was not unmusical, and it WORKED.
and also, try not to focus on the 32 track thing..that is just what BFD Ultra put out when you load it up, It does not mean I use all 32 tracks for each mix. I would say a good average is usually 17-18, but if you want that 6 tom, 6 cymbal kit with percussion, it's gonna be 32.
Spaceboy is a plugin that looks at frequency and shows you what is clashing right? I just don't think it's cheating, I think it is unmusical mixing. Meaning you have software looking at frequencies, but not hearing the song, being moved by it and trying to focus the energy into a cohesive sound. So to me, when you use a spectrum to mix you are trusting software instead of your ears. The software can not feel the music like you can and therefore will not really discern between what frequency clashes are musical and which are just noise.
Good ears, and some pale skinned studio experience (which makes good ears) will do that. Example..If you put a bass and a kick through spaceboy, it may take out some of the very frequencies in the bass that were giving the beat energy. Technically, they were clashing, but it was not unmusical, and it WORKED.
and also, try not to focus on the 32 track thing..that is just what BFD Ultra put out when you load it up, It does not mean I use all 32 tracks for each mix. I would say a good average is usually 17-18, but if you want that 6 tom, 6 cymbal kit with percussion, it's gonna be 32.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Well, I keep editing posts on you, so hopefully the dialogue still makes sense to you or other readers... it's not intentional, it's just that I'm the kind of writer who likes to edit, and sometimes I don't see proper edits or whole changes to be made until after I've pressed "submit".
Space Boy doesn't just ruthlessly cut holes into your mix. You can tune it to be very subtle, indeed, and it only resolves (not cuts) clashing frequencies when they ARE in conflict, unless you specifically tell it to be slash-cut in its approach. Even in its strength of 'resolving' clashes, you can still direct it to keep some overlap. Wonderful tool.
The implication that anything automatic is "unmusical" isn't one I buy into, personally. Space Boy, to use the example again, accomplishes more elegantly what many people use side-chain compression to do. Yet side-chain compression seems to be en vogue right now (honestly, I don't use it, but I can see its value). If the decision is made to give sidechain-compression or Space Boy a try on problem tracks, and you actively listen for the results, fine-tune, and then make a judgement call to keep the end product, you're still being musical in your approach.
And looking at your specific example, if the two were working together, I wouldn't have pulled out Space Boy in the first place.
----
Anyhow, despite my earlier protest, and without your giving me an elaborate explanation, I'll admit that you HAVE successfully convinced me that it could be useful for some people and in some situations.
That's a feat in and of itself.
I still think other people are full of shit, but I've changed my mind about you, and you've humbled me (in the good way) a bit in the process.
Greg
Space Boy doesn't just ruthlessly cut holes into your mix. You can tune it to be very subtle, indeed, and it only resolves (not cuts) clashing frequencies when they ARE in conflict, unless you specifically tell it to be slash-cut in its approach. Even in its strength of 'resolving' clashes, you can still direct it to keep some overlap. Wonderful tool.
The implication that anything automatic is "unmusical" isn't one I buy into, personally. Space Boy, to use the example again, accomplishes more elegantly what many people use side-chain compression to do. Yet side-chain compression seems to be en vogue right now (honestly, I don't use it, but I can see its value). If the decision is made to give sidechain-compression or Space Boy a try on problem tracks, and you actively listen for the results, fine-tune, and then make a judgement call to keep the end product, you're still being musical in your approach.
And looking at your specific example, if the two were working together, I wouldn't have pulled out Space Boy in the first place.
----
Anyhow, despite my earlier protest, and without your giving me an elaborate explanation, I'll admit that you HAVE successfully convinced me that it could be useful for some people and in some situations.
That's a feat in and of itself.
I still think other people are full of shit, but I've changed my mind about you, and you've humbled me (in the good way) a bit in the process.
Greg
Last edited by Lunch Money on Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
I'm sorry, but you are wrong on this one. There are plenty of producers that do spend hours on getting their kick sounds just right. I have a friend doing tracks for defjam right now that would blow your mind. He spends weeks on getting his drums set up just right, he then saves them as templates for projects. I think you are really oversimplifying rap production here. For easy proof, take an 808 sample and make a simple drum beat..then A/B it with an 808 drum beat that was professionally done..you will then realize how that kick is layered and EQd precisely to sound a certain way..it is not just taking an 808 sample and game over.Lunch Money wrote:Regarding hip-hop/DnB producers, though-- don't you think that some of them just find the right sample and use it? In mono or at best stereo? There's no way that even the minority of hip-hop uses kick drums that have been crafted painstakingly with hours of work by the producer......808 kicks... also not finely or painstakingly crafted...
Soul Drummer... there's the foundation of many a hip-hop song.
Lunch Money wrote:How many rock producers have just said, "Yeah, it was an awesome, organic experience. I threw him in the drum room, mic'ed up the kit with a few of my favourit mics, and 'rolled tape.'" Heck, it's a badge of honour and a matter of fashion over the past couple of years to do things this way. You can bet that they haven't outfitted the drum room with 32 microphones, or if they have it's their dirty little secret.
Greg
Tell me a rock producer that said this recently, I would love to see a quote of this..the only one I can think that would even try and say this would be Bob Rock when he made "st. Anger" which , as we all know is the world's worst sounding album for drums.
Don't fixate on 32 mics man..that is NOT the point.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Your knowing one guy or even a dozen guys who spend a week on a drum sound doesn't mean that by extension all hip-hop producers are like that. You can't honestly believe that your friend is the rule rather than simply one of the many examples of different approaches...?
Regarding rock-- you tell me a rock producer who HASN'T said this recently. They all seem to be echoing the same thing. I can't remember the last time a rock producer extolled the virtues of anything but the "organic" approach.
But, before you get mad again, re-read the above edited post in which I basically gave in and admitted that you must have a point.
Greg
Regarding rock-- you tell me a rock producer who HASN'T said this recently. They all seem to be echoing the same thing. I can't remember the last time a rock producer extolled the virtues of anything but the "organic" approach.
But, before you get mad again, re-read the above edited post in which I basically gave in and admitted that you must have a point.
Greg
Last edited by Lunch Money on Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
I am about to fall out, but the reason that all this detail is in records now is
1.because it can be..(thanks computers!)
but more importantly because labels want records to be so LOUD. take a mix and squish it to 10 RMS and you will hear how the snare gets lost, the guitars get louder, the kick shrinks..all kinds of crap happens..so the challenge (if you are making a commercial product) is to keep the integrity of the mix after mastering.
1.because it can be..(thanks computers!)
but more importantly because labels want records to be so LOUD. take a mix and squish it to 10 RMS and you will hear how the snare gets lost, the guitars get louder, the kick shrinks..all kinds of crap happens..so the challenge (if you are making a commercial product) is to keep the integrity of the mix after mastering.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
But here's the snarky bit (and I mean this in a good-natured way despite the apparent sarcasm)...
If you're already paying that much attention to detail for your drums, surely the few clicks to get it set up in Tracktion isn't the biggest of your concerns. All said and done, it'll account for 0.001% of your time spent on the project. 
Greg
If you're already paying that much attention to detail for your drums, surely the few clicks to get it set up in Tracktion isn't the biggest of your concerns.
All said and done, it'll account for 0.001% of your time spent on the project. Greg
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
Well I just read a copy of MIX or EQ or one of those mags where the producer (incredible resume he had, I think he did Janes Addiction for example, but I can't remember)in it is so detailed he has the drummer play the drums with no brass and then has him play the brass seperate. This is how detailed this game has gotten. I have not read anything where a rock producer just uses a few mics on a record anymore.
Also, most great rap producers are exceptional at getting great sounds...don't shortchange it, I am not talking abut kids on soundclick im talking about guys who make 5k a beat. They have to keep their game up because their are so many producers out there...you have to have great mixes and great sounds to compete.
I hear you about the tracktion thing, but it is because of this detail that workflow is so important..I want it ready to go and how I want it really, really fast, because Im doing so much other stuff..workflow is super important to me, and I have to go by what is most efficient for me. I want to spend my time mixing, and nothing else..and trust me, it became an issue or I would not have switched.
Also, most great rap producers are exceptional at getting great sounds...don't shortchange it, I am not talking abut kids on soundclick im talking about guys who make 5k a beat. They have to keep their game up because their are so many producers out there...you have to have great mixes and great sounds to compete.
I hear you about the tracktion thing, but it is because of this detail that workflow is so important..I want it ready to go and how I want it really, really fast, because Im doing so much other stuff..workflow is super important to me, and I have to go by what is most efficient for me. I want to spend my time mixing, and nothing else..and trust me, it became an issue or I would not have switched.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I tend to read Guitar Player or watch music programming on television. Guess we're seeing 2 different messages. For example, Kanye West seemed pretty content to go with whatever he happened to have picked up, working from the vibe of the samples and synthesized sounds and building upon that, rather than trying to tailor those sounds to be something other than what they were.
I dunno. You've got me doubting things, so that's good... always question things... but in my sphere of experience, producers and musicians tend to talk about simplicity as being king, not complexity.
Jane's Addiction... well... I love Jane's, but I'm not entirely sure that's the best example. Some really questionable decisions made for some of the production techniques. And just because this guy went into recording the drums and brass separately doesn't ultimately necessarily mean that it's what produced the good sound, you know? I'm very leery of putting too much faith into the words of professionals in a profession in which creativity and breaking boundaries is king. He might have success with that technique, where another producer with another band might have horrendous results. You know? So in the wash, it doesn't make any sense to try to zero in on a production technique as being a good one, particularly if your judgement criteria is that it's detailed.
That makes a -detailed- production, not a 'good' one. The two are mutually exclusive, even if they happen to coincide.
For all anybody knows, in 3 years you could be interviewed for EQ or MIX and by then you might be saying, "circa 2005-2006, there was a big push for ultra-concentration on the detail of the drums, but then a lot of us started figuring out that the less we focused on that stuff, the better our songs sounded! Which doesn't mean that the foundation wasn't important, just that these things would surface without trying to control them too much. You can't vibe when you're in such tight control!"
You know?
Back to my original 'blunt' point, and just to make it seem like I haven't totally been convinced by your argument: Anybody who's that microscopic in their approach isn't a producer anymore. They're an engineer. The ironic thing being that sound engineering-- as with mechanical, computer, or electrical!-- is all about finding the simplest solution to a problem.
I took an engineering course that focused on this very premise. The problem with much so-called "engineering" in our culture is that it seeks complicated solutions to a simple problem. A famous example (I have the book around somewhere if someone insists on Geographical facts) is with a food-relief effort in desert-area Africa. The problem was that food was being delivered, but it wouldn't "keep" long enough due to the heat. The solution by the first engineering firm hired: to build a refrigerated storehouse. Equipment was flown in, and the "fridge" was built. The flaws: 1. hydroelectricity was unreliable in the area, sometimes crapping out for weeks on end; 2. they constructed it with sheet aluminum, which would exascerbate the problem, making refrigeration even MORE important to counteract the effect of the sun upon the structure itself! The project was an expensive failure. The next team went in, talked to the locals, and found out about how they kept their own food "cool" by burying it in smallish hills. The new engineers basically dug a big hole in the ground, reinforced it, and made a good old-fashioned coldroom. Passively and naturally cooled. It worked.
Taking the analogy to sound engineering: If your kick isn't sitting in the mix properly, there are many things you can do, not the least of which being-- try a different kick. All the EQ, compression, and microphone trickery in the world won't create the right sound. The "right" kick drum will have the fundamental song that the song needs, minimal technological dicking around required.
Taking it a step further: craft the right kit for the song, and then use minimal "tweaks" within the plug-in itself, and finally use a touch of post-plug-in processing. If it's not sounding right by then, I really don't believe that splitting into multiple (forgetting 32 for a moment and saying even just 10) tracks for surgical doctoring will fix the problem.
I think it's also important to stress that my POV is related to the plug-in manipulation and not to a true drum micing strategy, about which I haven't a clue beyond what I've already stated. While you may want to commit 18 tracks to drums for micing a real drum kit in the studio, that's because you can't "undo" something committed to tape. With BFD and MIDI, you can just adjust the properties of the component that needs adjusting. It's a different game, and in some ways, perhaps my perspective is informed by the opinion that there's no need to pretend that BFD is a set of true mic'd drums on separate tracks. It's just an extra layer of complexity that isn't necessary due to the inherent flexibility of the plug-in.
Greg
I dunno. You've got me doubting things, so that's good... always question things... but in my sphere of experience, producers and musicians tend to talk about simplicity as being king, not complexity.
Jane's Addiction... well... I love Jane's, but I'm not entirely sure that's the best example. Some really questionable decisions made for some of the production techniques. And just because this guy went into recording the drums and brass separately doesn't ultimately necessarily mean that it's what produced the good sound, you know? I'm very leery of putting too much faith into the words of professionals in a profession in which creativity and breaking boundaries is king. He might have success with that technique, where another producer with another band might have horrendous results. You know? So in the wash, it doesn't make any sense to try to zero in on a production technique as being a good one, particularly if your judgement criteria is that it's detailed.
That makes a -detailed- production, not a 'good' one.
The two are mutually exclusive, even if they happen to coincide.For all anybody knows, in 3 years you could be interviewed for EQ or MIX and by then you might be saying, "circa 2005-2006, there was a big push for ultra-concentration on the detail of the drums, but then a lot of us started figuring out that the less we focused on that stuff, the better our songs sounded! Which doesn't mean that the foundation wasn't important, just that these things would surface without trying to control them too much. You can't vibe when you're in such tight control!"
You know?
Back to my original 'blunt' point, and just to make it seem like I haven't totally been convinced by your argument: Anybody who's that microscopic in their approach isn't a producer anymore. They're an engineer. The ironic thing being that sound engineering-- as with mechanical, computer, or electrical!-- is all about finding the simplest solution to a problem.
I took an engineering course that focused on this very premise. The problem with much so-called "engineering" in our culture is that it seeks complicated solutions to a simple problem. A famous example (I have the book around somewhere if someone insists on Geographical facts) is with a food-relief effort in desert-area Africa. The problem was that food was being delivered, but it wouldn't "keep" long enough due to the heat. The solution by the first engineering firm hired: to build a refrigerated storehouse. Equipment was flown in, and the "fridge" was built. The flaws: 1. hydroelectricity was unreliable in the area, sometimes crapping out for weeks on end; 2. they constructed it with sheet aluminum, which would exascerbate the problem, making refrigeration even MORE important to counteract the effect of the sun upon the structure itself! The project was an expensive failure. The next team went in, talked to the locals, and found out about how they kept their own food "cool" by burying it in smallish hills. The new engineers basically dug a big hole in the ground, reinforced it, and made a good old-fashioned coldroom. Passively and naturally cooled. It worked.
Taking the analogy to sound engineering: If your kick isn't sitting in the mix properly, there are many things you can do, not the least of which being-- try a different kick.
All the EQ, compression, and microphone trickery in the world won't create the right sound. The "right" kick drum will have the fundamental song that the song needs, minimal technological dicking around required.Taking it a step further: craft the right kit for the song, and then use minimal "tweaks" within the plug-in itself, and finally use a touch of post-plug-in processing. If it's not sounding right by then, I really don't believe that splitting into multiple (forgetting 32 for a moment and saying even just 10) tracks for surgical doctoring will fix the problem.
I think it's also important to stress that my POV is related to the plug-in manipulation and not to a true drum micing strategy, about which I haven't a clue beyond what I've already stated. While you may want to commit 18 tracks to drums for micing a real drum kit in the studio, that's because you can't "undo" something committed to tape. With BFD and MIDI, you can just adjust the properties of the component that needs adjusting. It's a different game, and in some ways, perhaps my perspective is informed by the opinion that there's no need to pretend that BFD is a set of true mic'd drums on separate tracks. It's just an extra layer of complexity that isn't necessary due to the inherent flexibility of the plug-in.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 2009 posts since 9 Apr, 2003 from Cornwall, UK
Is there some advantage to mixing BFD with tracks compared to mixing in a rack?
[is there some way to put a rack on each track and change the input and output of each rack to give the effect of mixing BFD on a per track basis?]
[is there some way to put a rack on each track and change the input and output of each rack to give the effect of mixing BFD on a per track basis?]
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Yes. Copy the rack filter to each track, and choose a different rack output for each instance.Mr. Tingle wrote: [is there some way to put a rack on each track and change the input and output of each rack to give the effect of mixing BFD on a per track basis?]
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flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
Go Greg. 
(regarding 'organic' drum micing)
As Greg pointed out, if you like doing things this way and it sounds good, then great. But just because a lot of mainstream crap is done this way doesn't mean it's the "right" way or the "only" way. It just means that's the fashion for major-label releases, the same way hyper-sqaushed mastering is right now.
In the real world, which you seem so fond of, good engineers move the kick mic around until it sounds good and THEN record it. (So the BFD analog, as Greg points out, would be to tweak yr BFD kick until it sounds good and sits right.)stash98 wrote:The Kick drum on BFD sounds great, but it is not EQd or processed in any way. It is just like a guy came in and played drums for you and now it's time to mix. You can say.."yeah this is fine" and go with it, but this is not how kicks are EQd on records.
(regarding 'organic' drum micing)
Read Tape Op, every issue has several. You really should. Based on your comments it would be quite a revelation coming from that glossy EQ-Magazine crap.stash98 wrote:Tell me a rock producer that said this recently, I would love to see a quote of this..the only one I can think that would even try and say this would be Bob Rock...
As Greg pointed out, if you like doing things this way and it sounds good, then great. But just because a lot of mainstream crap is done this way doesn't mean it's the "right" way or the "only" way. It just means that's the fashion for major-label releases, the same way hyper-sqaushed mastering is right now.
At home, he's a tourist...
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
the mic placement in BFD is is great already, I wouldn't really see the need to move mics. I am not Eqing the way i do to compensate for a bad mic job, I am doing it to make the mix sound the way I want it to sound.
I know about Tapeop, and I know all about the worshippers of Steve Albini, etc..I still have yet to go into a studio and see a guy throw 3 mics in a room for drums.
and you are right, it is the sound for major label releases right now..but that just proves my point of what I was originally saying..it is not crazy or retarded to mix this way, rather it is common because if done correctly it sounds great. And in fact many indies throw us work because they also like the sound and desire it also.
There really is no revelation to me from reading tapeop. just because EQ magazine is glossy and fancy doesn't mean it's crap. You sound like you are judging things you do not fully understand. I simply stated how I mix drums, you use 2 mics and a wire hanger..great job, I don't envy that, trust me.
and greg, I disagree about MIDI and BFD..MIDI enables you to program any part you want and go back and fix it to taste..but you are half wrong about why producers use 18-32 outs..it is for sonic reasons AND fixing drums quickly..on many indie and major recordings, a lot of drummers suck (no surprise), sometimes you have to use beat detective to fix them unless you want the world's worst sounding record. This is similar to MIDI, because you gate the drums and then move them to where they were supposed to be.
Now try doing that with the 3 mics setup..you can't. I sure hope your drummer is incredible and you have lots of time on your hands for editing..I don't...good luck with that one.
finally, being microscopic means you are being that way towards the song, the sound and the finished product..and yes it sounds like an engineer..that is why they call mixers "mix engineers".
I know about Tapeop, and I know all about the worshippers of Steve Albini, etc..I still have yet to go into a studio and see a guy throw 3 mics in a room for drums.
and you are right, it is the sound for major label releases right now..but that just proves my point of what I was originally saying..it is not crazy or retarded to mix this way, rather it is common because if done correctly it sounds great. And in fact many indies throw us work because they also like the sound and desire it also.
There really is no revelation to me from reading tapeop. just because EQ magazine is glossy and fancy doesn't mean it's crap. You sound like you are judging things you do not fully understand. I simply stated how I mix drums, you use 2 mics and a wire hanger..great job, I don't envy that, trust me.
and greg, I disagree about MIDI and BFD..MIDI enables you to program any part you want and go back and fix it to taste..but you are half wrong about why producers use 18-32 outs..it is for sonic reasons AND fixing drums quickly..on many indie and major recordings, a lot of drummers suck (no surprise), sometimes you have to use beat detective to fix them unless you want the world's worst sounding record. This is similar to MIDI, because you gate the drums and then move them to where they were supposed to be.
Now try doing that with the 3 mics setup..you can't. I sure hope your drummer is incredible and you have lots of time on your hands for editing..I don't...good luck with that one.
finally, being microscopic means you are being that way towards the song, the sound and the finished product..and yes it sounds like an engineer..that is why they call mixers "mix engineers".