this is SO on topic
ROnC
If you really want to appreciate Tracktion...
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- KVRAF
- 6490 posts since 14 Jun, 2004 from Rochester, NY
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Yes you can. Doesn't mean you should though.. if the drummer can't play in time, sack him.stash98 wrote: .. you gate the drums and then move them to where they were supposed to be.
Now try doing that with the 3 mics setup..you can't.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
You didn't even address some of my points. 
The very word "engineers" was addressed at great length in my post, in what I thought was a very valid way, and yet you still ended the above post as if I hadn't talked about it.
Complexity does not equal skill or talent. Being microscopic doesn't mean you're making something better (although of course, it CAN... but it's not a guarantee).
And then, you're bringing in a "real-life" drum situation again, when I've specifically tried to discuss the plug-in itself. You didn't address the fact that with BFD you CAN in fact change whichever component you want, to suit your needs. It is NOT analogous with an indie recording that used 3 microphones.
Then you quote what you perceive as an industry standard (ie. 18-32 microphones), and when someone brings up a counter-example, you dismiss it out of hand. Well, you're the one who asked for a recent example... and it was given... so you can't just say, "Oh, that, well I don't buy into that" because it's no better (or worse, really) than when *I* or others say, "18 separate tracks for BFD? I don't buy into that...."
Can't debate if one side not going to address points made, because then it becomes 2 separate streams of thought rather than one dialogue.
A question, since you DO seem knowledgable, then-- if you're given a song that's only 'separated' into one stereo track per instrument (ie. the drums at this stage have been mixed to stereo), what would you do with it to tweak it? Sure, you may not get exactly the results you'd get with 18 separate tracks, but there is lots you CAN do, and wonders have been done in exactly that situation.
Bringing it back to the point, which is about BFD and not "drum micing technique":
1. You have ultimate flexibility (in the plug-in world) of crafting the perfect drum kit for the song, tweaking it in realtime if need be, all from within the plug-in itself-- regardless of whether its destination is a stereo track or 18 separate outs. So you're not dealing with '2 microphones' in the "real world", you're dealing with pieces of kit that are already miced separately, can have different options applied, can be shifted into different "room", can have overhead mics blended to taste, are bleed-free, can be panned or have the volume adjusted to taste, etc... all from WITHIN the plug-in.
2. There are techniques that can be applied to even a mixed-down stereo track to help the drums come alive, such as single-band or multi-band compression/limiting, and "global" EQ, in addition to any other creative tools you have in your trick bag.
1 + 2 combined is certainly enough to justify my original point: using 18-32 separate outs of BFD is nuts to begin with, but if you DO need to do certain things with separate outs, they can be done in a rack!
And the rack, can be saved... and loaded almost instantly...
I don't expect you to agree necessarily. You have made very valid points, and I honestly DO understand that you have a preferred way of working, one that may be shared by other industry professionals. They wouldn't have MADE BFD multi-out if they hadn't anticipated the needs of people like you.
But my argument is convincing enough that I'm still standing by my original claim, albeit with a bit more humility and knowledge (thanks! despite debating, I DID learn stuff from you!), that using that many outs is-- if not "retarded"-- at least made redundant by exploring the alternatives.
Greg
The very word "engineers" was addressed at great length in my post, in what I thought was a very valid way, and yet you still ended the above post as if I hadn't talked about it.Complexity does not equal skill or talent. Being microscopic doesn't mean you're making something better (although of course, it CAN... but it's not a guarantee).
And then, you're bringing in a "real-life" drum situation again, when I've specifically tried to discuss the plug-in itself. You didn't address the fact that with BFD you CAN in fact change whichever component you want, to suit your needs. It is NOT analogous with an indie recording that used 3 microphones.
Then you quote what you perceive as an industry standard (ie. 18-32 microphones), and when someone brings up a counter-example, you dismiss it out of hand. Well, you're the one who asked for a recent example... and it was given... so you can't just say, "Oh, that, well I don't buy into that" because it's no better (or worse, really) than when *I* or others say, "18 separate tracks for BFD? I don't buy into that...."
Can't debate if one side not going to address points made, because then it becomes 2 separate streams of thought rather than one dialogue.
A question, since you DO seem knowledgable, then-- if you're given a song that's only 'separated' into one stereo track per instrument (ie. the drums at this stage have been mixed to stereo), what would you do with it to tweak it? Sure, you may not get exactly the results you'd get with 18 separate tracks, but there is lots you CAN do, and wonders have been done in exactly that situation.
Bringing it back to the point, which is about BFD and not "drum micing technique":
1. You have ultimate flexibility (in the plug-in world) of crafting the perfect drum kit for the song, tweaking it in realtime if need be, all from within the plug-in itself-- regardless of whether its destination is a stereo track or 18 separate outs. So you're not dealing with '2 microphones' in the "real world", you're dealing with pieces of kit that are already miced separately, can have different options applied, can be shifted into different "room", can have overhead mics blended to taste, are bleed-free, can be panned or have the volume adjusted to taste, etc... all from WITHIN the plug-in.
2. There are techniques that can be applied to even a mixed-down stereo track to help the drums come alive, such as single-band or multi-band compression/limiting, and "global" EQ, in addition to any other creative tools you have in your trick bag.
1 + 2 combined is certainly enough to justify my original point: using 18-32 separate outs of BFD is nuts to begin with, but if you DO need to do certain things with separate outs, they can be done in a rack!
And the rack, can be saved... and loaded almost instantly...
I don't expect you to agree necessarily. You have made very valid points, and I honestly DO understand that you have a preferred way of working, one that may be shared by other industry professionals. They wouldn't have MADE BFD multi-out if they hadn't anticipated the needs of people like you.
But my argument is convincing enough that I'm still standing by my original claim, albeit with a bit more humility and knowledge (thanks! despite debating, I DID learn stuff from you!), that using that many outs is-- if not "retarded"-- at least made redundant by exploring the alternatives.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
speaking of sacking the drummer: if he tunes and plays his kit properly, 3 mics will sound better than 30.. assuming good mics and a good room anyway.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
And another point I tried to make a few times, but possibly unsuccessfully, or at least it keeps getting buried with the "details"--
You simply CANNOT equate 'microscopic' attention with quality. Some writers can write a novel from start to end, and then just work with an editor to "clean it up". Other writers get through their novel, and only THEN do they consider the real writing to begin, going through several drafts in what they consider to be the "true" writing process.
The latter approach doesn't produce a better book just because more "attention" was paid to it.
Greg
You simply CANNOT equate 'microscopic' attention with quality. Some writers can write a novel from start to end, and then just work with an editor to "clean it up". Other writers get through their novel, and only THEN do they consider the real writing to begin, going through several drafts in what they consider to be the "true" writing process.
The latter approach doesn't produce a better book just because more "attention" was paid to it.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Here's a good tip for recording drums: make a big sign saying "hit the white things HARD and the shiny things soft" and hang it over the drummer's head. This is much cheaper than 27 extra mics and pre-amps.. 
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flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
AMEN.IIRs wrote:speaking of sacking the drummer: if he tunes and plays his kit properly, 3 mics will sound better than 30.. assuming good mics and a good room anyway.
At home, he's a tourist...
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
it's tough to address everything ..it's a lot of verbage man! 
I just dismissed his example because I dont see it done on rock records..I am not saying it isn't done, but I sure don't see it in my experience, and I havent read one tangible example yet.
ok, in BFD interface you can mess with mics and bleed and panning and ambience (I do all this)..but you can not EQ or compress, nor would I want too when I have bought plugins for that task. here are 18 tracks roughly thrown down so it makes more sense to you what I do, does this really seem insane? This is pretty standard mixing of a drum kit:
1+2 stereo Room
3+4 stereo pzm
5+6 stereo overheads
7 snare top
8 snare bottom
9 hat
10 kick in
11 kick out
12 high tom
13 middle tom
14 floor tom
16 ride
17 crash
18 crash 2 (or china)
I process each of those channels in BFD. I dont want to use global EQ/comp to make drums come alive when I can mix the kit to sound great applying the real world tecnhiques I have learned in more work..that is why I use BFD, because if you use real world techniques you will get a great drum sound.
as for what I would do if I got a song with stereo tracks for each instrument..well I would break out my compressor and EQ and see what I could do..it would not sound as good as individually tracked files (which is why it is done that way), and the client would be laughed at for lack of knowledge on how to engineer a record..basically, it wouldn't happen..but if it did, I would hope that the music was more acoustic or used softer guitars so I could get the drums to sound competitive....and I know this is how old records were made (on 8 tracks..etc) but there is a reason the same engineers who made those now use 32 and 48 tracks.
finally, the drummers do get sacked..problem is, you get a new guy in who has to learn the album..then you have 4 weeks to do a full record and 2 days to drums in the room you rented..so you will still have fo fix the hired guys tracks, just not as much..it's all about speed and efficiency (plus great songs) if you want to keep getting work and make money doing what you love. Not easy.
and I disagree about the 3 mics..Bonham was a great drummer but the same guys who worked on those records now mic each drum ...I think it is real easy to romanticize simple mic techniques unless you do this everyday and see why they do not work as well in a studio setting.
I just dismissed his example because I dont see it done on rock records..I am not saying it isn't done, but I sure don't see it in my experience, and I havent read one tangible example yet.
ok, in BFD interface you can mess with mics and bleed and panning and ambience (I do all this)..but you can not EQ or compress, nor would I want too when I have bought plugins for that task. here are 18 tracks roughly thrown down so it makes more sense to you what I do, does this really seem insane? This is pretty standard mixing of a drum kit:
1+2 stereo Room
3+4 stereo pzm
5+6 stereo overheads
7 snare top
8 snare bottom
9 hat
10 kick in
11 kick out
12 high tom
13 middle tom
14 floor tom
16 ride
17 crash
18 crash 2 (or china)
I process each of those channels in BFD. I dont want to use global EQ/comp to make drums come alive when I can mix the kit to sound great applying the real world tecnhiques I have learned in more work..that is why I use BFD, because if you use real world techniques you will get a great drum sound.
as for what I would do if I got a song with stereo tracks for each instrument..well I would break out my compressor and EQ and see what I could do..it would not sound as good as individually tracked files (which is why it is done that way), and the client would be laughed at for lack of knowledge on how to engineer a record..basically, it wouldn't happen..but if it did, I would hope that the music was more acoustic or used softer guitars so I could get the drums to sound competitive....and I know this is how old records were made (on 8 tracks..etc) but there is a reason the same engineers who made those now use 32 and 48 tracks.
finally, the drummers do get sacked..problem is, you get a new guy in who has to learn the album..then you have 4 weeks to do a full record and 2 days to drums in the room you rented..so you will still have fo fix the hired guys tracks, just not as much..it's all about speed and efficiency (plus great songs) if you want to keep getting work and make money doing what you love. Not easy.
and I disagree about the 3 mics..Bonham was a great drummer but the same guys who worked on those records now mic each drum ...I think it is real easy to romanticize simple mic techniques unless you do this everyday and see why they do not work as well in a studio setting.
Last edited by stash98 on Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
You need to get around to some more studios...stash98 wrote:I know about Tapeop, and I know all about the worshippers of Steve Albini, etc..I still have yet to go into a studio and see a guy throw 3 mics in a room for drums.
No, it doesn't mean it sounds great, it means it's in fashion. I hate that sound. And what "indies" are you talking about? Are they really indies or are they wholly-owned major-label subsidiary faux-indies? I realize that sounds snarky, but I'm really curious.stash98 wrote:and you are right, it is the sound for major label releases right now..but that just proves my point of what I was originally saying..it is not crazy or retarded to mix this way, rather it is common because if done correctly it sounds great. And in fact many indies throw us work because they also like the sound and desire it also.
At home, he's a tourist...
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
All fair points, and no your example doesn't seem all that "insane". I don't think my points have been invalidated, but nor should yours be dismissed as "insane", either.
Cheers!
Greg
I don't think my points have been invalidated, but nor should yours be dismissed as "insane", either.Cheers!
Greg
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
flannel i have worked in studios all throughout america, if anything I need to go to LESS studios. 
Most of the indies can afford 10k-25k month long budgets, so if you know your stuff you can deduce what labels those are.
what budgets do you work with?
Most of the indies can afford 10k-25k month long budgets, so if you know your stuff you can deduce what labels those are.
what budgets do you work with?
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- KVRAF
- 4345 posts since 8 Mar, 2005
To the original poster,
i only read your first post. Didnt read any other posts so forgive me if someone else has already pointed out to you.
Most of those points you listed is because you didnt read the manual.
1). Sonar is cluttered by default. You can change its layout. i have mine such that it only has the metronome, marker toolbar, current time and loop toolbar. It looks SO much better.
2). I assign a hotkey to bounce a track. Its much faster.
3). If you want to just copy something once or twice, you can ctrl + drag the clip to where you want and it'll make a copy.
4). THe midi+audio thing for inserting instruments is much more flexible/better/logical than having one track that does it all. You'll realise this if you use sonar a lot. (hopefully)
i only read your first post. Didnt read any other posts so forgive me if someone else has already pointed out to you.
Most of those points you listed is because you didnt read the manual.
1). Sonar is cluttered by default. You can change its layout. i have mine such that it only has the metronome, marker toolbar, current time and loop toolbar. It looks SO much better.
2). I assign a hotkey to bounce a track. Its much faster.
3). If you want to just copy something once or twice, you can ctrl + drag the clip to where you want and it'll make a copy.
4). THe midi+audio thing for inserting instruments is much more flexible/better/logical than having one track that does it all. You'll realise this if you use sonar a lot. (hopefully)
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flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html for one...stash98 wrote:I just dismissed his example because I dont see it done on rock records..I am not saying it isn't done, but I sure don't see it in my experience, and I havent read one tangible example yet.
Sounds like Mixerman.stash98 wrote:finally, the drummers do get sacked..problem is, you get a new guy in who has to learn the album..then you have 4 weeks to do a full record and 2 days to drums in the room you rented..so you will still have fo fix the hired guys tracks, just not as much..it's all about speed and efficiency (plus great songs) if you want to keep getting work and make money doing what you love. Not easy.
At home, he's a tourist...
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flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
OK, so crappy faux-indies.stash98 wrote:Most of the indies can afford 10k-25k month long budgets, so if you know your stuff you can deduce what labels those are.
At home, he's a tourist...
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- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
flannel, your loyalty to your sound is equal to my loyalty doing the best job I can do. I also browsed that web site, and it is pretty much what we do in prepro, but not for the record.
and yeah some of those labels are faux-indies that release annoying music, but others are not.
and yeah some of those labels are faux-indies that release annoying music, but others are not.