If you really want to appreciate Tracktion...
-
- KVRist
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
I live near Nashville and have participated in sessions for major label artists for many years. I've witnessed many more for artists as diverse as Elvis Costello to Crystal Gayle.
Engineers are obsessive. They will overwork a problem most of the time because they are taught that all problems in a recording session are technical.
Producers are there to remind engineers that is not the case.
Put simply, the engineering isn't as important as many of us have come to believe. Many good songs continue to be recorded in professional studios using home grown techniques. Sometimes the reasons are superfluous but the results are real. Confidence and conviction can more than compensate for a moderately poor recording. Ask anyone.
I've personally witnessed engineers spending days on kick drum sounds. It's a complete waste of time. The mixing and mastering engineers can and will change the quality of those sounds later and not always for the better.
Some of the best sessions are done very quickly. That's certainly the case for T Bone Burnett, Mitchell Froom and Jon Brion. Perhaps we obsess with the technology because it's easier than writing good material?
Engineers are obsessive. They will overwork a problem most of the time because they are taught that all problems in a recording session are technical.
Producers are there to remind engineers that is not the case.
Put simply, the engineering isn't as important as many of us have come to believe. Many good songs continue to be recorded in professional studios using home grown techniques. Sometimes the reasons are superfluous but the results are real. Confidence and conviction can more than compensate for a moderately poor recording. Ask anyone.
I've personally witnessed engineers spending days on kick drum sounds. It's a complete waste of time. The mixing and mastering engineers can and will change the quality of those sounds later and not always for the better.
Some of the best sessions are done very quickly. That's certainly the case for T Bone Burnett, Mitchell Froom and Jon Brion. Perhaps we obsess with the technology because it's easier than writing good material?
-
- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
good points, I dont write the songs for the bands I record (well at least I can't say if I did). I also don't record music in the style you mentioned. the music you are talking about doesn't have huge distorted guitars that eat frequency . Finally, with my template it doesn't take much time at all to get a mix sounding how I want it. Engineering is not as important when you have incredible studio players and a singer like Crystal gayle. I wish I had that luxury.
-
- KVRist
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
Granted and I also work with kids who can barely play - recording at home. I think we all do! Loud guitars, tape on the snare head, broken gear, etc, etc.
I think the best advice I can give here is to invest some time in preproduction.
I've found that attending one or two rehearsals and making specific suggestions can save me hours of work in a session. The results are much better too, certainly more focused.
I'll also stop a session and send a kid home to work on a vocal for a couple of weeks. It's not worth my time to wait for someone to figure out what they want and I'm not being paid to produce. It's a bit of a shock and a last resort but they get the point. Almost always, they come back better prepared.
I think the best advice I can give here is to invest some time in preproduction.
I've found that attending one or two rehearsals and making specific suggestions can save me hours of work in a session. The results are much better too, certainly more focused.
I'll also stop a session and send a kid home to work on a vocal for a couple of weeks. It's not worth my time to wait for someone to figure out what they want and I'm not being paid to produce. It's a bit of a shock and a last resort but they get the point. Almost always, they come back better prepared.
Last edited by james on Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
flanneljammies flanneljammies https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=19969
- KVRist
- 462 posts since 5 Apr, 2004 from Madison WI
Well, if your job is to make crappy, hyper-produced rawk records, then you should definitely do it well. I'm glad that's not my job. 
At home, he's a tourist...
-
- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I didn't realize that my points were only being weighed against an extremely specific genre and approach.
-
- KVRAF
- 3125 posts since 6 Dec, 2002 from Ljubljana/ Slovenia
it is, except for 3+4.stash98 wrote:This is pretty standard mixing of a drum kit:
1+2 stereo Room
3+4 stereo pzm
5+6 stereo overheads
7 snare top
8 snare bottom
9 hat
10 kick in
11 kick out
12 high tom
13 middle tom
14 floor tom
16 ride
17 crash
18 crash 2 (or china)
i used 4 mics the very last time I recorded someone, overs, kick, snare. snare mic wasn't even used in a mix later.stash98 wrote: and I disagree about the 3 mics..Bonham was a great drummer but the same guys who worked on those records now mic each drum ...I think it is real easy to romanticize simple mic techniques unless you do this everyday and see why they do not work as well in a studio setting.
(the goal was vintage sounding ballad though)
k
-
- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Clearly there's a line to be drawn, and it's often genre-specific. I understand the "over-romanticize" argument because people tend to do that with guitar (about which I know much more than about drums). I agree that it's a danger to not take advantage of the opportunities presented you. But on the other hand, there's ALSO over-technical approaches.
Lots of engineers still swear by one microphone and a guitar amp, though I'm sure you personally use 2 mics on the amp and another mic or two for the room.
One technique for massive guitar sound in a certain style is to track the same part between 4 and a dozen times with slight differences in tone, and pan them all over the place. Can't get that lush wall of distortion otherwise. But that's only one technique for for one kind of song... for many other songs, one track with one mic and one amp gives you the immediacy that's needed for the song.
Over-romanticizing is a mistake, but over-engineering is also a mistake.
Greg
Lots of engineers still swear by one microphone and a guitar amp, though I'm sure you personally use 2 mics on the amp and another mic or two for the room.
One technique for massive guitar sound in a certain style is to track the same part between 4 and a dozen times with slight differences in tone, and pan them all over the place. Can't get that lush wall of distortion otherwise. But that's only one technique for for one kind of song... for many other songs, one track with one mic and one amp gives you the immediacy that's needed for the song.
Over-romanticizing is a mistake, but over-engineering is also a mistake.
Greg
-
- KVRian
- 991 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from USA
micing each drum is used in most genres to be honest..i dont think all the music i do is crappy either..i just worked with an excellent band that didnt play to a click because their drummer was that tight..it ended up feeling very organic and the record is one of the best we have done.
flannel, what is your job? I love making music for money even if every band i work with is not up to indie elite standards
flannel, what is your job? I love making music for money even if every band i work with is not up to indie elite standards
-
- KVRAF
- 8519 posts since 7 Apr, 2003
-
- KVRAF
- 27007 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds
stash98 was explaining how setting up BFD in Tracktion is not working as well for him as Cubase and why.grymmjack wrote:What does any of this sidebar have to do with Tracktion?
I've found the whole discussion interesting as I have no experience in that world.
-
- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
FWIW it could be argued that Greg's approach (balancing the mics then applying global EQ and compression) is more valid than the traditional technique of EQing and compressing individual channels, as you preserve the phase relationship between the mics. After all, the traditional techniques were developed when only expensive mastering studios had multiband compressors..
Anyway.. BFD may well be the closest you can get to a real drum kit in your studio using plug-ins, but its still nothing like micing a real kit!
Anyway.. BFD may well be the closest you can get to a real drum kit in your studio using plug-ins, but its still nothing like micing a real kit!
-
- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
grymmjack wrote:What does any of this sidebar have to do with Tracktion?
Ron, on page 6 wrote:this is SO on topic
ROnC
When the opportunity for a meaninful and useful discussion presents itself, I think most of us don't really mind pursuing that opportunity. In education, we call it a "teachable moment," which is something only vaguely related to the planned lesson.
I think being too concerned about "on topic" discussion would invalidate hundreds of teachable moments we've had here at KvR. Thanks in part to Stash's great attitude not getting too upset at my sideways digs, we've ended up having a successful and very informative conversation about a very important technique.
To me, that's a great thing! I don't care what the topic's called.
Greg
-
- KVRist
- 268 posts since 11 Nov, 2003 from kentucky
Yeah. What he said.